CS Slingshot help?

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by uberfish
I find it's extremely rare for oracle to be built before 1500 BC on normal speed, unless you're playing deity. It's still very hard to pull off at immortal I'll admit and unless the start position is really good, I'd just take CoL or Metal Casting at that level, both of which have huge trade value as Pagan correctly states. At emperor, the slingshot can be done fairly consistently with the right sort of start.

I'm not a big fan of the prophet versions of the slingshot any more because they delay Academy and Shrine construction for a significant time, I don't really want to waste time building Stonehenge if I am getting a religion anyway, and I always seem to get masonry out of huts which wrecks the plan.

I've only played once at immortal and once at Deity. On the latter, Oracle was built in 1675BC. This was at Epic speed and is equivalent to 1950BC at standard speed.

For the rest, I’d agree with all this talk of commerce and say that the key to the slingshot is research. The academy is a bonus to the slingshot and the tactic still pays off without this (150 hammers converted to 1500 beakers!!! And that’s without the culture and GP benefits). You can always get your academy later if you bee-line Literature and build Great Library.

I’d recommend you try out different tactics. Sometimes fishing can be a good route if you don’t have this as a starting tech but have sea resources. Also be aware that you could simply attack Writing through Myst/Med/Priest route for a quicker hit at CoL.

You are basically looking for the fastest route to CoL so should only research something if it will “repay the beakers” in the time-frame required for the slingshot. For example, if you have gold in your fat cross then the cost of researching mining will be recovered very quickly and you’ll get to CoL faster.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

originally posted by uberfish
I find it's extremely rare for oracle to be built before 1500 BC on normal speed

This was an estimate, since I usually play on marathon and epic and always get beat to the oracle if I push for a CS or even COL slingshot on emperor. In my experience the CS sling is not feasible for most starts on this difficulty. If you regenerate start locations until you get something good, then maybe, but I would still say it is far from a sure thing. If you are set up for an early pottery grab or have high commerce specials then your chances are greatly increased, however I rarely have grassland gems or gold near my start location so I don't think you can rely on this to happen. I usually play with civs that do not have mysticism so that increases research time to Oracle. The strategy I discussed was formulated mostly for Rome, Japan, and Napolean with whom I've had the most experience on emperor.

originally posted by uberfish
I'm not a big fan of the prophet versions of the slingshot any more because they delay Academy and Shrine construction for a significant time

The more I play emperor the more convinced I am that founding a religion is unnecessary and probably not worth the effort for a non spiritual civ. The early shrine does not really help much since the AI will almost always discover the early religions and spread them before you can. With the steep expansion penalties you will get little benefit in the early game from a confucianism shrine. I find it is always better to steal an AI buddhist or hindu shrine and supplement this later with your own shrine. Even with a decent commerce start, the AI will occasionaly beat me to COL (usually Washington).

The delayed academy is more of a concern, but the beakers saved on research of COL and CS dwarf any science output from an early academy. The prophet strategy sacrifices some early research, but puts you in a much more dominant position militarily. The addition of new cities will also help alleviate the burden of a delayed academy. In my current game, by the time I got to CS (shortly after 1 AD) I had already built about 15 praetorians and was well on my way to crushing my neighbor. I am a big fan of the prophet slings because they provide so much flexiblilty and do not leave you in a weak position early.

[fed1943]

Several interesting points,I think.The key to the slingshot is research;so good commerce is needed.And to make a CS sling good isn't enough,must be very good.But a CLsling or a Farseer is also worthy(if done and if its price is not sudden death).
Actualy I think the Farseer is the safest and best to take.We have great commerce(that's the condition)so what could be better that something increasing hammers?
Vel'work showed me the military weakness of the sling doesn't exist if the Oracle is not in the capital,so I always put it in 2nd city.
Both cities have good commerce;what about if the capital is also very reasonable(or best)at hammers?Then the Pyramids could be tried,after defense.
I would like to ear from you.What you think,what ways you follow.
Best regards,

[samspock]

So far I have pulled of the slingshot as Romans, Egyptians, Incans, Aztecs and Americans. The earliest I was able to do it was in the 1400's (normal speed) and that was because I got animal husbandry in an early goodie hut and went strait for writing and an early library. This is all at prince level. I tried at Monarch once and got my rear handed to me before I could pull it off.

I have been playing around with different tracks to writing, favoring either wheel/pottery or agri/animal depending on which tech I start with first. Sometimes I try one route only to get goodie hut techs that would have helped another! Has anyone founded Hinduism as Rome after researching 5 other techs first? I have. Weird game that one.

One thing I alwas look for is a river and a gold or gems in the fat cross. Nothing else will boost you as fast earlier than that. One game had two gems and a gold hill! That city was a beaker monster.

[uberfish]

Originally posted by PaganPaulwhisky


This was an estimate, since I usually play on marathon and epic and always get beat to the oracle if I push for a CS or even COL slingshot on emperor. In my experience the CS sling is not feasible for most starts on this difficulty.

I'd agree with that which is why I stressed commerce in my first post in the thread. If you don't have seafood, gold or gems you're better off going for CoL or metal casting with the oracle. It's much easier to do cause you don't have to research the very expensive CoL.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by fed1943
Vel'work showed me the military weakness of the sling doesn't exist if the Oracle is not in the capital,so I always put it in 2nd city.

At the higher levels, in my experience, things are very tight if you try to build a settler for a second city in which to build the Oracle. Even with a worker who can chop a lot of forests, there is a delay. And it will usually take a while to get enough hammers in your second city, although you may be able to get round this with a worker and enough forests. These delays usually add up to the Oracle has been built in a distant land .

RJM at Sleeper's

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by fed1943
Actualy I think the Farseer is the safest and best to take.We have great commerce(that's the condition)so what could be better that something increasing hammers?

Pardon, I am not familiar with Farseer. Could you elaborate?

[uberfish]

Farseer is just a fancy name for using the oracle to get metal casting. If you're getting both pottery and bronze working early anyway and plan to build Oracle, this is the tech to go for 90% of the time. You just don't have the time to research any more prereqs.

[fed1943]

Farseer is to get metal casting as the free tech.
If I put the Oracle in 2nd city I'm taking the risk someone beat me in the race,if I put it in the capital I'm taking the risk of beeing destroyed.
Best regards,

[Gherald]

With Inca on Noble I slingshot in 1950 BC with almost any start, especially if there is a decent river.

I don't know what it is about 1950 BC, but 80% of the time that is the precise year I does it.

Here's a brief outline of my Inca strategy... it can work well enough with any Fin but Quechuas and Mysticism really help.

==Research==

Meditation -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Priesthood -> ??? -> Writing -> Code of Laws.

??? is most often just Mining and Bronze, but can sometimes be Animal Husbandry instead, especially with Plains+Cows or river sheep, and possibly if have Pigs but a severe lack of other food.

In coastal/lake situations without a semi-decent river you need Fishing, possibly instead of Pottery (tho pottery is still good -- you need those hamlets ASAP regardless of slingshot)

If you're lucky enough to have elephants or Fur, especially next to a river, Hunting should be squezed in there somewhere in time for whenever your worker is gonna be ready to go campin.

(Otherwise the only reason to get Hunting is for Archery, which is almost never needed as Inca)

==City Tiles==

Beginning from turn 1, emphasize commerce to the extreme, manually assigning tiles as needed. Your city should only be producing 1 hammer unless one of the following conditions are met:

1) You are building your worker. (should only take 8 turns on Quick speed)

2) You have a cow or horse pasture and can afford to work it instead of a commerce tile.

3) You have a commerce bonus resource that is in a forest (fur, silk, etc)

4) You see that you need more hammers to time the Oracle to finish with CoL (taking any judicious forest chops into account)

==Quechua==

Explore in circular fashion so as to get any nearby huts as well as locate second city spot for later, but make CERTAIN you return in time to prevent unhappiness.

==Build order==

From turn 1, start building Barracks as a filler. Switch to worker the instant city reaches Population 3. After worker is finished, switch to Oracle the instant you have Priesthood (sometimes it's done before worker is finished, but often you have to continue with Barracks for a few turns, depending on start.)

==Worker==

Assuming a river, build at least 2 cottages. Then evaluate how much you need to chop for Oracle to be done in time for Code of Laws. Continue building 1-3 more cottages or perhaps mine a hill until you need to start chopping.

Obviously 1 or 2 chops can be interspersed with building cottages, if it helps your worker move more efficiently and not waste turns.

Briefly interrupt the above sequence to farm corn/wheat if applicable (this may be the first thing you do if your city is immediately next to corn) ... but note that this is nowhere near as important as raking in the commerce.

On a more general note, I am not a locust and like to keep at least 2,4, sometimes 6 forests in my capital. Here is a ranked list of the types of forests within my fat cross that I am most likely to chop.

1) Grasslands that touch a river in only 1 corner. These almost always get chopped unless I have 5 or more food plains.
2) Hills that touch a river in 1 corner.
3) Hills alongside rivers.
4) Hills not near river.
4) Grasslands alongside rivers.
5) Plains that in any way touch a river, but especially those with only a corner.
5) Grasslands without a river.
6) Plains without a river (I almost NEVER chop these)

Note there are two 4's and two 5's. The amount of food resources and bare hills available determines how these ties are broken.

==Oracle Aftermath==

Finish barracks, build 1-2 quechuas as needed, then settler, worker, and library (these last 3 in whichever order is more appropriate to your situation).

Fill in Animal Husbandry or Bronze if they are missing, then get Iron Working so you know where to settle. After this I like to beeline Theology, but you could also go straight to Philosophy or Literature, then Mathematics and the Music bomb. Or Metal Casting and Machinery if you have a bad neighbor.

Send the confucian missionary in a stack with your first settler for immediate culture, but don't convert yet unless you _really_ need the happiness. With no state religion, if you got Budda your capital's borders should be growing very quickly with that extra +10 holy city culture/turn. This helps compensate for your lack of early expansion by allowing you to hook up resources that are 4-5 squares away. With some luck you'll get Christianity or Taoism and a successful spread to your capital, giving you pretty decent culture in your second city and a good thing to convert to if you need the happiness (or theocracy/pacifism)

If you are not shooting for Great Library, wait until you get your first prophet before opting to run scientists. But I usually don't run specialists until Representation or Angkor, instead using bureaucracy to focus on commerce, wonders, and monastaries when otherwise idle. All prophets should be settled into your capital until you have a clear need for a shrine. This will give you 100% science funding for the entire game, and those +2 hammers become +3 under Bureaucracy.. awesome for wonders.

Sometimes my 2nd city will generate the scientist for me, especially if it has a couple food resources and I'm running Pacifism (which I try to get early)

[cynyck]

1) Grasslands that touch a river in only 1 corner. These almost always get chopped unless I have 5 or more food plains.
2) Hills that touch a river in 1 corner.
3) Hills alongside rivers.
4) Hills not near river.
4) Grasslands alongside rivers.
5) Plains that in any way touch a river, but especially those with only a corner.
5) Grasslands without a river.
6) Plains without a river (I almost NEVER chop these)

Can you please explain your reasoning for ordering them this way?

Also, how are grasslands that touch a river in only one corner different from grasslands alongside rivers?

[Gherald]

Originally posted by cynyck
Can you please explain your reasoning for ordering them this way?

I'll try to explain it in terms of the PRO/CONs of chopping them. Note that missing out on the +0.5 health of each forest, rounded down, is always a CON of chopping them.

1) Grasslands that touch a river in only 1 corner:

PRO: Good cottage spot!
CON: Future +2 hammer lumbermill (assuming railroad too)

2) Hills that touch a river in 1 corner:

PRO: With a mine it is +2 hammer, +1 gold, more than it would be with a lumbermill.

3) Hills alongside rivers:

PRO: Immediate +2 hammers +1 gold (no waiting for replaceable parts, railroad)

4) Hills not near river:

PRO: Immediate +2 hammers.
CON: Future lumbermill..

4) Grasslands alongside rivers:

PRO: Good cottage spot!
CON: Future +2 hammer, +1 gold lumbermill

5) Plains that in any way touch a river, but especially those with only a corner.

PRO: Reasonable cottage spot IF lots of food available (two of corn, pigs, fish, etc)

5) Grasslands without a river:

CON: River tiles are obviously better to chop, since they get an immediate +3 gold from cottages. But in a pinch -- little or no river -- these will do once grown to hamlets.

6) Plains without a river:

CON: Would become a useless plain tile for most of the game. Nothing useful can be built on these until State Property workshops...

Also, how are grasslands that touch a river in only one corner different from grasslands alongside rivers?

Corner ones do not get +1 gold from lumbermill. Ones alongside rivers do.

[Ijuin]

I usually find that it is more worthwhile for me to build Windmills on hills, so I never put Lumbermills on them--once you get Replacable Parts, you get +1/+1/+1 from a Windmill.

[Gherald]

That is something I will consider if I have a lot of hills and am relatively low on food. But I usually want my capital to have production more than food.

[Ijuin]

Don't forget the +1 commerce from the windmills too!