CS Slingshot help?

[Ijuin]

I have been practicing the CS slingshot tactic, but I keep running into the problem that the AI builds The Oracle long before I get finished with Code of Laws, so in order to beat the AI, I am forced to take an earlier tech and research Civil Service the slow way. Any tips?

[rjmatsleepers]

If you don't research Masonary, but do research Writing and whichever out of Meditation and Polytheism you didn't research for the Oracle, your first Great Prophet will give you Code of Laws. You can get your Great Prophet by using specialist priests or from an early wonder such as Stonehenge. A philosophical leader will get you that Great Prophet earlier.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Bkeela]

I regularly beat the AI without recourse to a prophet at Prince level, even with the Aztecs. If an industrious leader finds some marble, it is pretty much a lost cause though.

I always get bronzeworking and a few of the necessary improvement techs like agriculture and the wheel before researching meditation, polytheism and priesthood. Then I get writing and try to construct some libraries to speed up Code of Laws.

It's a nervous wait holding off the completion of the Oracle for Code of Laws to finish, but a worthwhile risk I've found.

[kittenOFchaos]

Be fair though Bkeela, Prince level isn't that tricky.

[Bkeela]

True, but you are still disadvantaged. I wouldn't even attempt a CS slingshot on higher difficulty levels.

[uberfish]

I've pulled off the straight oracle -> CS slingshot at immortal around ~1600 BC and won the game from it. It takes a high commerce starting position, and focused research - you can't research more than 2 or 3 techs outside the path to CoL.

[CraigRichardson]

Originally posted by uberfish
I've pulled off the straight oracle -> CS slingshot at immortal around ~1600 BC and won the game from it. It takes a high commerce starting position, and focused research - you can't research more than 2 or 3 techs outside the path to CoL.

Bingo. Every worked tile in your capital must produce at least one commerce. Flood plains help. Throw a fishing boat into the queue to work a coastal tile. Minerals (gold, silver, gems), esp. if you are Financial. Cottages will help you long-term but they really aren't paying off by the time you should be completing a slingshot - so you need "natural" commerce from a good starting position.

It also helps if you have Agriculture resources rather than Animal Husbandry resources, because you need Ag anyway to build normal farms. And you can't deviate to get both, so you must choose.

My most successful slingshots have been when I had Gems on grassland, but it's not strictly necessary. But everyone must contribute at least something or you'll fall behind in tech.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bkeela
True, but you are still disadvantaged. I wouldn't even attempt a CS slingshot on higher difficulty levels.

The slingshot is achievable up to immortal with the right leader and starting position. The higher the level, the more benefit from a philosophical leader. And as Uberfish points out you need a high commerce start and focussed research.

And that is the problem. At the very high levels, you cannot afford much deviation from the main research path. I've rarely had the luxury of a single off path tech.

You also can't afford much deviation as far as your builds are concerned. Every extra warrior, worker or settler delays things and at high levels even a single turn delay can mean failure.

I suspect that at high levels, chopping for the Pyramids helps your research more than the slingshot.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Ijuin]

So then Elizabeth would be ideal for a slingshot?

[SebP]

Originally posted by CraigRichardson


Bingo. Every worked tile in your capital must produce at least one commerce. Flood plains help. Throw a fishing boat into the queue to work a coastal tile. Minerals (gold, silver, gems), esp. if you are Financial. Cottages will help you long-term but they really aren't paying off by the time you should be completing a slingshot - so you need "natural" commerce from a good starting position.

A river start with a financial civ will make cottages useful pretty early during the slingshot. My first near-traditional CS slingshots (no prophets involved) were with Qin Shi Huang on monarch (starts with mining and agriculture). Techs: Wheel, then pottery, then writing, bronzeworking and priesthood before code of laws. The library is build more for the beaker bonus than for using scientists, because by the time you get it, your cottages will be 4 commerce

The obvious weakness is that you don't get a scientist for the academy early, and quite possibly may end up with a prophet as your first Great Person. Your first 3 or so cottages will grow to 5 (6 with the river) commerce real early though

you also need to chop quite a few forests so what you need is grasslands, forests, river, but no gems, gold or even a high-food tile. if i remember correctly at least, it's been a while

[Hermann the Lombard]

Bkeela, if you've seen the Devel Workshop Ia thread you've seen Vel complete the Slingshot at Monarch (and me too if you were masochistic enough to read that far), and I'm confident that Vel would have completed the Slingshot even without the fortuitous gift of Bronze Working. A lot does depend on the starting position (including traits and techs). I'm confident that we *won't* see a CS Slingshot in the "bad starts" thread.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Ijuin
So then Elizabeth would be ideal for a slingshot?

Well I certainly think so, but as they say "you pays your money and you takes your choice".

RJM at Sleeper's

[PaganPaulwhisky]

I think it's pretty easy to pull off the slingshot on Prince regardless of your start. An early beeline to pottery can help speed up the research process (although you will probably have to skip bronze if you do this unless you start with the wheel). Also an early library with 2 scientists will speed along COL research. If it looks dicey, then just chop it early and take COL. It won't really set you back too much if you avoid masonry and back this up with the propeht CS sling.

On monarch its fairly risky, but can probably be accomplished 80-90% of the time, but you have very little margin for error. Occasionally I will attempt the CS on monarch, but I prefer not to as it leaves you very vulnerale in the early game. Beyond this I do not even try for the CS slingshot as you have to get pretty lucky to complete it on emp or immortal. Even if you have a great start, the AI can still beat you to it easily as they usually complete before 1500 BC. If they get early access to marble you can kiss it goodbye.

I think it is much safer to chop oracle (for IW or metal casting) and stonehenge right away for prophet points then take COL with 1st prophet and CS with your second prophet. This works pretty well on emperor especially with Romans for early Praets, although the AI can still beat you to COL. I find that on emperor level you will always get an awesome return on COL, I can usually trade this for up to 8 techs once I research alphabet. I was really struggling in the early game on emperor, but I am getting much better starts with this strategy. I usually research to bronze first, followed by pottery if I have the wheel (if not then skip to Priesthood and follow up with pottery), and finally writing to COL. This will put you in a strong position techwise and still allow you to build plenty of units early for a followup war.

[fed1943]

I'm feeling myself lazy right now,but I will count on my fingers,later.
Techs for Cssling:mysticism,meditation,priesthood(Oracle)+wh eel,pottery(budget)+two from fishing,hunting,agriculture,husbandry(food)+mine,b ronze(unless you are a brave warrior)+writing,CL(to CS).
Sucessive builds(2 cities):2 warriors+1worker+1 settler then Oracle while 2workers+2axemen.And luck.
Best regards,

[uberfish]

I find it's extremely rare for oracle to be built before 1500 BC on normal speed, unless you're playing deity. It's still very hard to pull off at immortal I'll admit and unless the start position is really good, I'd just take CoL or Metal Casting at that level, both of which have huge trade value as Pagan correctly states. At emperor, the slingshot can be done fairly consistently with the right sort of start.

I'm not a big fan of the prophet versions of the slingshot any more because they delay Academy and Shrine construction for a significant time, I don't really want to waste time building Stonehenge if I am getting a religion anyway, and I always seem to get masonry out of huts which wrecks the plan.