Should Stalin and/or Hitler be a leader in Civ?

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Badtz Maru

He hired gay and handicapped officers
Hitler was a sensitive man (x4)
[/i]

And when he found out Ernst Roehm was gay, he had him killed.

[Overcast32]

Well, I'm no fan of Hitler - but I don't see any reason to *not* put him in the game.

Many people post and worry about offending others, etc...

But - first and foremost - he was a fact of History, like it or not. I hear in Germany his name is all but eliminated from Historical textbooks. Any mention of his name will incite some to anger or rage...

Again, he was a part of history - like it or not.

We should remember him - clearly.
Afterall, if we don't learn from history... I think we all know the rest

Actually, I'm offended by those who seek to change history to keep others from being offended!

[Generaldoktor]

I take it the "poetry," above is song lyrics from some band in the Post-Modern genre. Song lyrics are less graphic than animated depictions and appear to get more protection for political content, Tipper Gore notwithstanding.

I had a friend who spent 20 years marketing so-called "alternative" music; having recently sold out due to competition from the Internet download market and cut rate mail order; and he took me to many shows over that period and introduced me at home to promo copies of many "sub-genres." There is a whole line of what he called "fascist" or "racist" punk music out there, much of which fuels the modern skinhead movement. I hope this "sensitive" little ditty cited above doesn't come from that genre.

Read a cute essay on the Intenet the other day about Nazis conflicting attitude toward gays. (I hope the thought police in the U.S. doesn't misinterpret my motives and arrest me. They're tracking all of us now, you know. ) Evidently, German gays, pre-WWII, were sort of philosophically divided into two camps; the "femme" gays, as represented in the movie/play "Cabaret" ; and the "butch" gays, represented by the Brownshirt crowd, among this last, the founder of the Hitler Youth, who was something of a pederast. Needless to say which group predominated in the concentration camps (some "Butch" gays were "purged," violently, in the "Night of the Long Knives" violence June 30,1934; though.) However, it is probably not inaccurate to say the Nazis had "gay police officers." Which doesn't excuse them for anything.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Alexander01


And when he found out Ernst Roehm was gay, he had him killed.

Not really. Roehm and his SA had become a serious threat to the Hitler and his clique. It was just a matter of getting rid of the opposition, just as Hitler got rid of his other political opponents like the Strasser brothers. Roehm and the Strassers were the leaders of the "left wing" of NSDAP, and they had been getting too much support in the party by 1934. And Roehm was the leader of SA, the armed wing of the nazi party. So if Hitler hadn´t killed him, he would´ve taken control of the party sooner or later....

[Generaldoktor]

Zoid is I believe correct, but, per this essay again I was mentioning above, the gay angle gave Hitler ammunition to justify the "purging" (which was of course terminal, except for a few junior "lefty" SA, who went to Dachau, the "proto"-concentration camp) and coverup other gay associations within the party among those who shared allegiance to him. A fascinating study, very plausible; the only reason I don't put a link here is because I'm not sure of the motive of writing it. (It appears to be a repudiation of another essay, by the mainstream gay community, called "The Pink Swastika." )
Also, this subject, which admittedly I digressed on too, is a bit off-topic.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Overcast32

Actually, I'm offended by those who seek to change history to keep others from being offended!

I hear that! I'm sick of post-modernism and revisionist history!

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Sebastian88
Why is everybody so worked up about this? This thread is getting huge!

[Generaldoktor]

And since that post, it's even huger. I guess the whole issue plays to some of the reasons people are playing the game, (wanting something more than vaguely "historical" ) as opposed to why other people are playing the game (more interested in testing themselves in a smooth, non-controversial system.)

I don't want to change history, I don't like "revisionists" either, I just thought a groundswell might start to include Hitler in some future XP, (he evidently didn't make it into the upcoming "Warlords" ) and I personally didn't think a move like that was good for the future of the game, especially with what I've seen in media backlash in recent years. I've made my points and haven't convinced anybody. I'm willing to let it rest.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Generaldoktor
And since that post, it's even huger. I guess the whole issue plays to some of the reasons people are playing the game, (wanting something more than vaguely "historical" ) as opposed to why other people are playing the game (more interested in testing themselves in a smooth, non-controversial system.)

I don't want to change history, I don't like "revisionists" either, I just thought a groundswell might start to include Hitler in some future XP, (he evidently didn't make it into the upcoming "Warlords" ) and I personally didn't think a move like that was good for the future of the game, especially with what I've seen in media backlash in recent years. I've made my points and haven't convinced anybody. I'm willing to let it rest.

Well, I certainly wasn't talking about you, and I didn't mean to offend you.

[Zoid]

I think Generaldoktor is right about the "groundswell". If Firaxis included Hitler in some way they´d be overrun by angry people accusing them of bad taste and covert support of nazism. And there´d be pictures of Sid Meier dressed as Hitler all over the web.

By a funny coincidence I got this link in my e-mail today...

http://www.pusanweb.com/feature/hitlerbar/

[Son of David]

If Firaxis make a proper World War II scenario I cannot see any reason not to have a Hitler leaderhead because the player will be able to play with the Nazi Germans in that scenario anyway.

Since there is not a WWII scenario (except the rather boring existing one which uses stealth bombers and stealth fighters to represent World War II aircraft) there is no need for him to be in. The scenario would demand his inclusion but it would be the *only* justifiable reason to include him.

So - Hitler in the next expansion?

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Son of David

So - Hitler in the next expansion?

I still doubt it. They'll probably just photoshop some hair onto Civ3's Bismarck leaderhead and call it Hitler.

Can anybody say Hezekiah? (Xerxes)

[Rommel2D]

The second expansion is to be titled Civ 4: Underlings, and Germany will be represented by Col. Klink (but you didn't hear that from me... ).

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Rommel2D
The second expansion is to be titled Civ 4: Underlings, and Germany will be represented by Col. Klink (but you didn't hear that from me... ).

Are you sure it isn't going to be Schultz?

[Rommel2D]

No, if you saw the same promo I did, you might be thinking of the Hoover leaderhead- notice the low-cut blouse and pink tutu...