No copper

[pchang]

why axemen over swordsmen. Swordsmen have 6 vs. 5 for axes and the extra shields is isn't that much.

[CerberusIV]

Originally posted by pchang
why axemen over swordsmen. Swordsmen have 6 vs. 5 for axes and the extra shields is isn't that much.

Because axemen get a 50% bonus against all melee units (which includes swordsmen) making axes vs swords 7.5 against 6.

If your enemy has mostly axemen/swordsmen/spears then axemen are the way to go. If your enemy has mostly archers or mounted units swordsmen are a little better.

[Urban Ranger]

This makes axemen + archers a strong defensive combo. Throw in some spearmen and you're in good shape.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Yosho

I don't agree...if you can get swords (or Jaguars if Aztec) while your neighbor is still relying on bows, it's not hard to launch a major invasion and conquer him quickly; and you will usually have at least one neigbor who either dosn't go up the bronzeworking path early or dosn't get copper.

But it makes the invasions cost more if you've got a cultural or aggressive neighbour or they are not settling on hills. Once those archers have promotions or extra defensive bonus you will probably find that you'll lose at least one axeman for each defender which I find wasteful at the higher levels

You are, of course, assuming that you have a neighbour. In my current game I started on an island which was about 80% jungle. No copper or horses in sight so early conquest was not an option.


But your biggest concern without Copper is not that you cannot attack but that you have weak defenses against Barbarians. Archers are an imperfect solution because you’ll still be extremely vulnerable to axemen outside of your cities. Without copper you have to go for iron as insurance against the inevitable attack. This did happen to me on my island and my post-sling warriors around my capital had to do a lot of dancing around to distract the axemen from my city while I built first some shock warriors and then some axemen of my own once the mine and connection to Iron were made. I was even lucky enough to keep all my improvements although lost several warriors for my pains.

[Addled Platypus]

would no iron by 1980 makes things worse ?

still playing even though I will lose

makes one be peaceful and fun loving

[Ned]

You might also try the Oracle sling shot to Machinery and then research Iron Working. IMHO, the crossbowman one gets from Machinery is the best unit in the game and will place you in a dominate position early.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Ned
You might also try the Oracle sling shot to Machinery and then research Iron Working. IMHO, the crossbowman one gets from Machinery is the best unit in the game and will place you in a dominate position early.

Don't they also need iron, though? Or am I remembering wrong?

[Smellycowsquid]

Originally posted by Yosho



Don't they also need iron, though? Or am I remembering wrong?

I don't think so...

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Yosho



Don't they also need iron, though? Or am I remembering wrong?

Yes. Without copper, iron or horses you're in a bit of a fix and will only have archers and cats until Feudalism.

No iron also means you won't be able to get cannon either.

Unless you're lucky and get ivory, your offensive windows are going to be a bit limited.

[Ned]

My post did say you had to research iron, but only after you have Machinery. If you have no iron, though, the slingshot is of no avail. But if you do discover iron, you will have a military advantage over your neighbors for quite some time.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by couerdelion


Yes. Without copper, iron or horses you're in a bit of a fix and will only have archers and cats until Feudalism.

No iron also means you won't be able to get cannon either.

Unless you're lucky and get ivory, your offensive windows are going to be a bit limited.

Heh...yeah, I had a "war elephents against macemen" war once; I'm starting to like war elephents a lot more, they're actually a very flexable unit with only one weakness.

[couerdelion]

The only other unit I could find that you can build without Iron is the Camel Archer that Saladin gets with Guilds. But it's still a long way.

[Saurus]

I think this issue is heavily level-dependent.
On Emperor-difficulty, not having access to copper is a really, really bad thing and mostly lead to early destruction no matter what.
My experience is that bronze working can be researched early enough so that you do not yet need to compromize research due to upkeep cost.
But if beeing whitout copper, then Iron working is so expensive (combined with upkeep cost witch will start to hit by the time you research iron working) the research will be so slow, you will be ruthlessly killed long long before you get it.
And even should you get ironworking there is still the building of roads, mine the iron resource and actually build those defending units in enough numbers to whitsthand an attack.
But since barbarians will attack even much earlier you must even research hunting & Archery before starting to research ironworking so to have ANY defense at all.

To make things even worse, in order to compensate the lack of copper, you will be forced to build scores of scores of warriors/archers and this will hurt your economy and make reserach even more sluggish.



Beeing forced to rely on archers and/or chariots for defense against a ruthless A.I on emperor early on is just inadequate.
Archers are also useless against pillaging barbarians and chariots also will win only when the barbarian is not having any promotions or not getting any defensive bonus.

[Yosho]

Yeah...if you don't have copper on the harder settings, you have to use archers to stop the barbarians, do whatever you can to maintain peace with the AI's (if you've got enough archers to keep your power at a reasonable level, it's not impossible, unless you start off next to montezuma) and then either make for ironworking or horse archers. It can be done, although it's hard and requires some luck, especalyl on pangea.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by Yosho
Yeah...if you don't have copper on the harder settings, you have to use archers to stop the barbarians, do whatever you can to maintain peace with the AI's (if you've got enough archers to keep your power at a reasonable level, it's not impossible, unless you start off next to montezuma) and then either make for ironworking or horse archers. It can be done, although it's hard and requires some luck, especalyl on pangea.

That's one of the reasons why pangea is so much fun. The early action. On a remote continent you have early skirmishes with barbs, who are pretty easy. You may still want to get archery if there is no copper, or go for iron working, especially if you are Romans.

On pangea, if Alex lives nearby, and you don't have copper, you'd better get archery quickly, because he looks inside your cities, and if he only see warriors, he makes an abrupt detour. I know from experience.

In some games on pangea, I'll settle a 2nd or 3rd city right on top of copper to lessen the time to get an axeman started. A few turns can save your civ from destruction. The same with stone for the pyramids. To save some time, I may put a city right on the stone. getting beat to the Pyramids by several turns is a crushing blow. At least there's some good coinage in return.