ok, so how do you win on emperor?

[make]

Originally posted by Shaka II
My present game. One of the advantages of having both Pyramids and GL in the Capital, with Academy and Bureacracy.

This is an awsom combination to have. I have tried it myself and find it very effective. If you manage to get the Pyramids and switch to representation, youre in a very good posittion to compete in the research race, if you use specialist to get the extra science from them.
The Great ingenier from from the Pyramids is used to hurry the GL, for extra boost to research.

I find stone to be a rare thing to have in the beginning. Maybe its just me, but I think there is a greater chance to have stone in the imidiate area from the start, if you are industriuos.
Anyway, industrious is a must if you want a good chance getting the Pyramids build in time before any other industrious civ, and without stone, its a matter of great luck or alot of forest chop.

As regard to my last Pangea game, i managed to get a domination victory in 1436.

[make]

It took 25 hours to complete the victory. So Pangea domination is a faster game, due to not having to wait for a navy to be build, so you can invade another continent across the sea.

I liked the intense landwars and the shorter time it takes to complete a domination victory.

What I missed in the pangea game is the period where you discover and explore new worlds with caravels and explorers. Later the colonization period when galleons arive. Great naval battles with frigates is also fun.

I did not build a single ship, lighthouse or harbor in the game.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by make

This is an awsom combination to have. I have tried it myself and find it very effective. If you manage to get the Pyramids and switch to representation, youre in a very good posittion to compete in the research race, if you use specialist to get the extra science from them.
The Great ingenier from from the Pyramids is used to hurry the GL, for extra boost to research.

Yes, the two free scientists along with one or two assigned scientist specialists really gets your science and GP rate going. Add National Epic to get 100% GP rate, and possibly Pacifism to add another 100%. But with a large empire, Pacifism probably is less powerful than the others.

Originally posted by make

I find stone to be a rare thing to have in the beginning. Maybe its just me, but I think there is a greater chance to have stone in the imidiate area from the start, if you are industriuos.
Anyway, industrious is a must if you want a good chance getting the Pyramids build in time before any other industrious civ, and without stone, its a matter of great luck or alot of forest chop.

As regard to my last Pangea game, I managed to get a domination victory in 1436.

Good game. 25Hrs? You must do a lot of micromanaging.

The lighthouse and harbors can still be built built, but it depends if you start in the core of pangea or on the coast. Usually about 1/4 of the cities will have water access, while maybe 1/3 to 1/2 will have water access on continents. Depends how big the continents are too.

I only try if I have stone and a bunch of forest. Marble is nice for the GL, National/Heroic Epic, in case you have to build that one, if there's no Great Engineer. I usually go BW, Wheel, Masonry, but defending against barbs is tricky with warriors. Put them on forest or forested hills. If you're lucky, you get your copper hooked up. If you go for Archery, the AI may beat you to the Pyramids. If you don't go for Archery Alex may get you. He looks to see if you have any Archers too.

[make]

Originally posted by Shaka II


Yes, the two free scientists along with one or two assigned scientist specialists really gets your science and GP rate going. Add National Epic to get 100% GP rate, and possibly Pacifism to add another 100%. But with a large empire, Pacifism probably is less powerful than the others.

Good game. 25Hrs? You must do a lot of micromanaging.

I find that The National Epic is better to build in another city than youre capital. That is because I want to use most tiles possible in my capital because of buracracy.

In the beginning youre capital is often the main GP generator due to wonders and the fact that chances are its the largest city wich can better support specialist.

If / when I get another city with better food production, I will switch my Great people factory over to that one and build the National epic there. It really have to produce alot of food, so it can support atleast 4, 5 or 6 specialist. If it only have 1, 2 or 3, the chance of getting a Great artist is to high IMO. Ofcourse you might be wanting a GA, then its a different story, but that is never the case in my games.

My captial will be running bueracracy, so I dont want to use specialist here. Better to assign all people to work tiles, so you make max use of the +50% hammer and commerce bonus.

To make optimal use of buracracy, I want both the Wallstreet and Oxford Uni. in my capital, so National Epic is a weaker choice here because it takes up a national wonder "space". I think I have a new favorite trait, industrious. Industrious is a nice trait because if you dont have it and there are other indistrious civs, youre chance of getting wonders if very small. With industrious its likely that you get atleast one or two world wonders. The completion of Wallstreet and Oxford in half the time is also very nice.



Yes, i think I am a slow player in general because I micromanage alot.

Happy gaming

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by make


I find that The National Epic is better to build in another city than youre capital. That is because I want to use most tiles possible in my capital because of buracracy.

I think this is often sound although you should also bear in mind that you wont be running bureacracy forever and that the capital can often produce plenty of GP from wonders. If you are going to take a long time for your "GP farm" to get up and running, you may find it better to get the National Epic in earlier in your capital so that it doesn't find its value coming too late once GPPs are worth less.

Industrious is not a bad trait but the key determinent for getting a wonder is gaining the research lead. I've managed Oracle (chopped), Great Lighthouse and Great Library with a non-industrious civ and no bonus resources at Immortal level simply because I got ahead in research.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by make


I find that The National Epic is better to build in another city than youre capital. That is because I want to use most tiles possible in my capital because of buracracy.

This is a good point. It's true, bureacracy does not mesh well with generating the GPPs in the Capital. But some of them are free, like the two that the Great Library provides. Also, any wonders in the capital, like Pyramids, Great Library, provide GPPs. Hanging Gardens is a nice one to build too. Wonders add up to be quite the GPP factory.

But you're right about not wanting your Capital to be just a food farm. It also depends on how long the game goes, if it is an early domination game for example. At emperor, I never build Oxford or Wall Street anymore, since I win the game before then. Instead, I usually build National Epic and sometimes Heroic Epic.

Going for a space victory is quite different and planning ahead allowing Wall Street and Oxford in the same city may be the way to go. But there are often cities with higher commerce potential then the capital and Bureacracy gives way to Free Speech for the larger advanced civilization. So I guess it depends. Also, whether one is Philosophical, Pacifist matter.

Industrious is fun, especially since the Pyramids are no guarantee even if you have stone. To address Couerdelion's concern, one way of looking at it is if Industrious allows you build the Pyramids, it gives you a Great Engineer to build the Great Library, which gives you a Great Scientist to build the academy, and so on, to attain the science lead.

I'm trying a deity game now as Mao (PHI/ORG) and I had stone in my third city, so I built the Pyramids and the GL. Now I have to see if I can use that advantage to stay even in science, while capturing a few cities from Washington to expand my empire. Deity is too hard I think, but after this I may try a few games at immortal, which seems reasonable. It's fun to try deity anyway, even if to get humbled.

[make]

Originally posted by Shaka II
Going for a space victory is quite different and planning ahead allowing Wall Street and Oxford in the same city may be the way to go. But there are often cities with higher commerce potential then the capital and Bureacracy gives way to Free Speech for the larger advanced civilization. So I guess it depends. Also, whether one is Philosophical, Pacifist matter.

Industrious is fun, especially since the Pyramids are no guarantee even if you have stone. To address Couerdelion's concern, one way of looking at it is if Industrious allows you build the Pyramids, it gives you a Great Engineer to build the Great Library, which gives you a Great Scientist to build the academy, and so on, to attain the science lead.

I'm trying a deity game now as Mao (PHI/ORG) and I had stone in my third city, so I built the Pyramids and the GL. Now I have to see if I can use that advantage to stay even in science, while capturing a few cities from Washington to expand my empire. Deity is too hard I think, but after this I may try a few games at immortal, which seems reasonable. It's fun to try deity anyway, even if to get humbled.

Yes, in a Pangea game (domination), you will probably win before Wallstreet and Oxford, so by all means, build the National Epic in the capital.

Actuallly I am going for a space race victory in my current game. I have never tried it, so I think it is about time. I want to see the victory movie, hehe.

About Free speech VS Bureacracy. I have tried to switch from Bureacracy to Free speech a few time. This is useually in the end game where domination is only a matter of time. I have mainly done it for the culture bonus, so new captured cities expand there borders faster. I have not noticed any significant increase in gold/turn or science. It may be because I setup my capital with Wallstreet, Oxford, Academy, and often some GP specialists.

Is there any general guidelines you use, about when it is an advantage to switch from Bureacracy to Free Speech? Or do I have to count all the town in my empire and do the math. I find it very difficult to foresee the effect.

Respect for trying Immortal and Deity

[make]

Originally posted by couerdelion
Industrious is not a bad trait but the key determinent for getting a wonder is gaining the research lead. I've managed Oracle (chopped), Great Lighthouse and Great Library with a non-industrious civ and no bonus resources at Immortal level simply because I got ahead in research.

You get a techlead on Immortal. Very impressive. I always struggle to catch up in tehcs on emperor.
Do you have a special strategy to accomplish this?

I find that wonders can get you a good place on the techladder. The Pyramids for Representation, GL and so on. But you say you get the wonders with a nonindustrious civ because you have the techlead in the first place. Its a bit like "what came first?, the egg or the chicken"

[Shaka II]

Very chicken and egg.

I think if you beeline for certain techs, you can beat the AI at the harder levels, though deity seems very tough to be the first. I don't want to play it more than as a learning experience. The fun levels are below deity. I think domination on immortal will be a harder victory condition than space victory, simply because it's harder to get that military tech advantage or to have it last very long. But, I'll have to try it next.

Originally posted by make

Is there any general guidelines you use, about when it is an advantage to switch from Bureacracy to Free Speech? Or do I have to count all the town in my empire and do the math. I find it very difficult to foresee the effect.

Not that I know of. I do an approximate count up the tiles with towns and compare to the gold and production lost in the capital. The effect of multipliers on the towns or base commerce and hammers in the Capital have to be considered. So if you have financial multipliers such as banks, markets, grocers, and production multipliers such as forges in your best 6 cities, I'd say it's time to switch. But you have to do some kind of approximate tally along these lines.

But, like you say, the cultural bonus is very important in the late game, so that value has to be weighed in. It's not just a monetary and production evaluation.

I've been more careful about not staying with bureacracy too long after playing a Japanese domination game, where I made about 70 gold per turn extra when switching to free speech. Also, when I discovered Communism and switched to state property, I saved about 140 gold. For large empires, state property is very key, assuming the game goes that far.

[fed1943]

At emperor/immortal,I think one must not be far from the ways of domination,even when trying another victory,lest be destroyed.
But I have to say that I never played islands or archipelags.
Best regards,

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by make


You get a techlead on Immortal. Very impressive. I always struggle to catch up in tehcs on emperor.
Do you have a special strategy to accomplish this?

I had a lucky start on my jungle island with just enough to work with in Kyoto. Osaka turned out to be a bit of a deadbeat second city but both of them had gold so I got my money back. But this was all from a CS sling which I went for because my starting position gave me Clams, Corn and Gold for Kyoto. With fishing and wheel as starting techs I could go straight for Pottery.

I could also mention that I popped THREE techs from nearby huts so certainly couldn’t complain about the start. Once the sling is completed you already have a tech lead because CS is so expensive. Add to that bureaucracy feeding from a well-commerced capital and I’m also running a comfortable research rate ahead of rivals. Once my capital churned out my second settlers, I basically left those cities to fend for themselves and multiply (and also defend the capital). Kyoto, for the most part is left to look after itself and work for its key output of research. Great Lighthouse and Harbours all provide a healthy commerce bonus while the monasteries alone give me an extra 8-10 beakers.

To be honest, it feels like I’m playing at Emperor level because the other civs are a quite some distance behind on techs. I guess I might also be helped, in a strange way, by all the jungle on the island. It’s making horizontal expansion very slow which is keeping the tech rate nicely around the 90% level.

All this hasn’t stopped Genghis declaring war for no apparent reason. Let’s hope the likes of JC, Boney and Peter don’t decide to join in once they’ve finished having their piece of Isabella. If anything, my small military makes me think it safer just to bribe one or two of them to join my side although I rather fear that they will carve Genghis up a little too much before I get the chance to flex my muscles properly.

[make]

Originally posted by Shaka II
Going for a space victory is quite different and planning ahead allowing Wall Street and Oxford in the same city may be the way to go. But there are often cities with higher commerce potential then the capital and Bureacracy gives way to Free Speech for the larger advanced civilization. So I guess it depends. Also, whether one is Philosophical, Pacifist matter.

I would like to clarify a few things about Wallstreet, Shrines, commerce and gold.

Bare with me guys, you probably already know it, but maybe somebody got confused along the way.

Yes, its true that there are sometimes cities with better commerce potential than the captial. I would like to correct myself in regard to building Wallstreet in the capital.
It is often best to build Wallstreet in a city with a holy shrine. Shrines give gold and that is what Wallstreet multiplies, not commerce.

So if the shrine gives 30 gold it becomes 60 gold with Wallstreet for the shrine alone. That is 12 fullgrown cottages before Free Speech and with 0% Science and 100% gold on the slider, for comparison. Actually gold from shrines is not affected by the slider, or any other gold source, like specialists. Only commerce is affected.

So, most often, Holy Shrine and Wallstreet should be the combo to go for, and if its not in the capital the shrine is, then Wallstreet do not go there.

Sometimes the Shrine do not give much and then its a bit more tricki to figure out wich city will benifit most from the multiplier from Wallstreet. If you cant find a clear candidate for Wallstreet, then the city wich can build it fastest should be considered, if you do not plan for another national wonder there.....oh boy theres a lot of considerations always in this game. But thats part of why we keep playing, right

If you are not the lucky owner of a shrine, chances are that it is the capital wich generates most gold. Then Wallstreet goes there to.

In regard to Oxford. That is the one you want in the city wich generates the most commerce, because commerce can be turned into science with the % slider.

[make]

Originally posted by couerdelion
All this hasn’t stopped Genghis declaring war for no apparent reason. Let’s hope the likes of JC, Boney and Peter don’t decide to join in once they’ve finished having their piece of Isabella. If anything, my small military makes me think it safer just to bribe one or two of them to join my side although I rather fear that they will carve Genghis up a little too much before I get the chance to flex my muscles properly.

I would imagin that, on Immortal, you are very much living of the mercy of the AI. So the best way is maybe an Island start like yours, with lots of commerce specials to get ahead in techs and trading wisely (when they arive in there caravels). Then you can hide there, build wonders and hope that the AI's beat each other while you develop your Island empire, and perhaps waiting for oppertunities to join somebody in a war to expand.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by make

Yes, its true that there are sometimes cities with better commerce potential than the captial. I would like to correct myself in regard to building Wallstreet in the capital.
It is often best to build Wallstreet in a city with a holy shrine. Shrines give gold and that is what Wall Street multiplies, not commerce.

Good points. Of course it depends on whether or not you have a shrine and whether it is a good producer. The shrines I tend to acquire are the captured ones, unless I found Confucianism accidentally. But the cities shrink some when you capture them, so often it's still better to build WS in the core, which by then may include several foreign capitals. So, it all depends. Also, does the shrine city have enough production to build WS in a reasonable amount of time? I usually consult my F1 screen to check production, commerce, food, etc., before deciding on what national wonders to build where.

Also, you can't stay at 100% forever, so when the research rate drops to something more normal like 60%, the financial multipliers that operate on base commerce come into effect, which feed into the 100% WS multiplier. So, it doesn't have to be a shrine city to produce a whopping income.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by make


I would imagin that, on Immortal, you are very much living of the mercy of the AI. So the best way is maybe an Island start like yours, with lots of commerce specials to get ahead in techs and trading wisely (when they arive in there caravels). Then you can hide there, build wonders and hope that the AI's beat each other while you develop your Island empire, and perhaps waiting for oppertunities to join somebody in a war to expand.

I don’t really know if I was “lucky” to be on an island. The one I got seems to have all of the world’s jungles so my workers are probably working at 60% speed because of the chopping. But I was lucky with my capital so the sling-powered economy is securely maintaining its tech lead.

Since I had the tech lead it was my Caravels that found the world and now that I have a fuller view of the world I can see that the initial set up was

Island 1: Me (as Tokugawa)
Island 2: Napoleon and Genghis
Island 3: Julius, Peter and Isabella’s former Spanish empire
Island 4: Qin, Lizzie and Bismark (an almost insurmountable barrier to circumnavigation by sea)

None of these have Philosophy, Paper, Astronomy or Education and I’m beginning to think that I could have even made a diversion to Music before the Liberalism sling to Chemistry.

I had originally thought that Islands 2 and 3 were one continent. Limited map trading showed a river but I could not see the narrow channel of water that would have allowed me to cut my circumnavigation by nearly 20 turns.

No surprises when I tell you that Island 3 got all the first three religions. I picked up Confucianism and Taoism while Lizzie and Qin got the other two. Fortunately for me, Napoleon saw the wisdom of adopting Confucianism so I had an ally when Genghis declared war. Napoleon came into the war relatively cheaply and seems to be having a little success. With my small but well-trained army, my focus was on defending the seas and my Caravels managed to stop a small stack arriving (and gain a promotion or two) before Genghis sued for peace. He still had a very large galley fleet in Beshbalik but this is could now be under threat from Napoleon’s armies so making peace with me might have saved this.

I may well return to this war soon but am a little nervous about dividing my land forces up when there will still be cities to take on my island when the real fighting begins. The one compelling reason to rejoin the war and try to tag onto a stack of Napoleons is that I will get a little mileage from my Samurai. They didn’t even break sweat when they took a barbarian city.