ok, so how do you win on emperor?

[Shaka II]

It looks like Caesar is the threat, so maybe change to his religion is a good thing to do. Don't worry about Liz, especially if she's on the other side of the map. Besides, she's not really a warmonger. Caesar though, he enjoys a good battle and like to have a large army.

Hang in there and make peace with Caesar as soon as he will talk. The good part of the situation is that your grenadiers will be well promoted after this war.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by cgrecu77

Since conquering cities one after the other yields quite a lot of money you only risk suffering from negative budgets at the very end of the game, usually the last 30 turns or so. In order to prevent this you need to concentrate early on making money - as soon as you get code of laws you must set the science at 0%. Also you must build courts in all conquered cities as soon as possible using a combination of chopping and sacrificing. Once you get the hang of it it's quite easy to stay afloat all the way to the end.

But you didn't have Code of Laws, which is why you had to use the anarchy exploit. I will accept it as a viable strat if you go for CoL before the maintenance costs get so bad that if you don't capture another city soon, your army is disbanded. So, if you had kept research going until CoL, chopping in or pop rushing in courthouses would have helped avoid the situation. Besides, with the cheap courthouses that Romans get, to not build them is not using them to full advantage. But I see that is your suggestion anyway, so we agree.

I know the effect that you're refering too, using captured city income to keep the expansion wave going. I just like to have a bit more of a financial buffer, so that when I stop, my army doesn't disband.

Originally posted by cgrecu77

At this point (around 400 AD) the situation was like this:
I had a score of about 1800, Louis was second with ~800, all the others were around 300 or below. I was the tech leader with the exception of louis who was far more advanced, I didn't even have the code of laws or mathematics, and he had music and philosophy ... Luckily we were best friends with a rating of over 10+.

Once I got out of anarchy, in a few turns all my units were disbanded and I ran into an unexpected problem that forced me to reload ... Since I had quite a few dark pockets, barbarians kept popping up and I had nothing to defend since I had no army ... it sucks to see a little warrior conquering your capital and not being able to do a thing. The main problems were my capital, that had large unopulated tundras underneath, and in the far east where the barbs had 2 cities close to my border.

Originally posted by cgrecu77

If you don't consider chopping an exploit than I only used "legal" strategy.

No, chopping wood is part of the game, if there's any wood left to chop. By the time I get around to conquering the world, most of the forests are gone, so I usually pop rush theaters and courthouses in to lessen the cost of maintenance. But in the early era that you're talking about a lot are still there.

Originally posted by cgrecu77

Not only it can be done, but it's so easy that it could be considered an exploit.

Probably with Romans, given that you have iron, it come close to being an exploit. I would say to play the Romans, and to a lesser extent the Japanese, one should really play at immortal if you're going to do an early domination game like this. The designers took into consideration quite a lot, but not everything, given all of the variables. The set of conditions that makes this strat especially potent or exploitive, are pangea, marathon, emperor, Romans, and iron. Take any one of those away and you have no more exploit. Go to immortal and it probably will fail. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by cgrecu77

The problem with emperor is that you can't really have a fun game because you are always catching up and you are constantly at the computer's mercy. If you get attacked you usually lose the game even if you don't lose a single city. The difficulty levels are way too imbalanced in Civ 4, the last 3 are basically unplayable (not unwinnable, but unplayable) ...

Well, it is true that you always start behind at emperor, in fact, you are generally last for quite a while, but that's the present limit of AI. It needs an advantage over the human player. That will not be the case in about 10 years. No more bonuses will be required. Until then we have to live with starting from behind and play catch up through the game.

I've played numerous games on emperor where I've been a builder half of the game, not even gone on the war path until grenadiers sometimes, building many wonders, so that kind of game is generally more fun, to play with the economy, science, manufacturing, diplomacy, generating great people ...., this can all be done at emperor, but a little warmongering is generally required to gain a larger empire, to remove the AI bonus. The pure warmonger game does get a bit boring, and Civ is much more than that.

BTW, nice game. I may have to try a much abbreviated version of this on my first immortal game, if I play as Romans that is. But what better civ is there? The trouble is at the higher level, is that you can't keep the wave going, you can only go in spurts, so what you can achieve with Praetorians is more limited. Maybe one neighbor is about right, and then go on about your science research, until the next war opportunity arises, probably with grenadiers. To fall behind in science is death.

[make]

Originally posted by couerdelion


If you want to soften her up a bit then get yourself a half-decent navy of frigates and stuff and declare war. When the galleys start floating over stuffed with her best troops, send them to the bottom. If you have OB agreements with a common ally then you can choose to fight on neutral ground or wait for her land troops to arrive in yours where they can be chopped up.

While she's building her armies she's not able to build other things.

p.s. She might just decide to wait for your armies to arrive so perhaps this wont work.

With regard to a shrine city, you're unlikely to flip this ever. It is well defended by its own cultural bonuses.

If I declare war on Lizzi, her army wil most likely come from land. Its Pangea map and I have now cities next to her borders.

I think it is best to leave her alone for now. I have enough on my hands at the moment, fighting Bismarck and Ceasar at the same time. When / if i get the upper hand in this war I will drive it to the end. Taking over all of there cities. When I have them, I think domination is close and then I will see how to go from there.
I just hope I can get Lizzi into some war, so that she dosnt run off getting to tech advanced.


Yes, it was a big mistake to use the GA to try to cultureflip a holy city.
The next great person I got was also a GA, annoying. I uses him as a specialst to atleast get the +3 gold.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

I'm still having major trouble on this level, although I don't have much time to play anymore. I can't seem to get the balance of military power and science right. I find that I have to basically wreck my economy just to get enough units to do any damage or keep myself from getting attacked. For instance right now I'm playing Tokugawa, but even with organized and very early cottage spam my science has dropped down to 10% with all my cash reserves spent. This happened at at the crucial point when I was just about to get CS. Catherine then promptly declared war on me and she is most powerful.

I think I probably took a few too many cities from the Americans, but I only have 5 or 6. I don't see how you guys can compete so well without cities to pump units. I tried to be super aggresive this game, since my slower strategy just gets me pounded. I was not able to secure a religion in this game as Washington beat me to COL by a few turns. This really hurt my cash flow and is causing major unhappines in all cities since I don't have luxuries.

I think I did a much better job this time of keeping pace in tech since I was first to alphabet and will probably be 1st to CS. However, now my science is almost nonexistant. Any ideas how to recover in this situation? I have been building courthouses, but have no economic techs to save me. I could probably trade alphabet for some techs like monarchy which would really help the unhappiness. I don't want the AI to get this, but I would like to get some techs in return as one of them will proabably research it soon enough. I can probably stave off Catherine for awhile as I built alot of axeman, but she really picked the absolute worst time to declare war on me.

Do you guys focus more on buildings and science in the early game? I was constantly churning out axeman in this game and only felt I had time to build a lib in capital and stonehenge and some courthouses in other cities. AI beat me easily to Oracle. I probably need to take a shrine ASAP or I am lost, but this will be really hard to do with Cathy attacking me.

If I go for early science, I can only build two or three cities and then get choked off. Then I cannot compete in units and usually get attacked by monty or Alexander early. I find Oracle slingshots to a major gambit on this level and usually avoid them unless I am industrious. Any advice is appreciated particulary in the early game science effort besides the obvious build lots of cottages (which just isn't enough of a boost). Sorry , but I don't have a save to post right now.

[uberfish]

Without seeing a save it's difficult to tell what's going wrong, because organized should normally not have trouble supporting 5-6 early cities. Is your empire really spread out? Distance maintenance might be killing you and moving your capital can be the right move sometimes. Have your captured American cities got the food to make slave rushing courthouses and libraries attractive? In addition to the obvious money saving courthouses, libraries really help as you can take your citizens that were working mines and turn them into scientists and get some research going.

If you have a lot of troops still, you should be able to hold Catherine's attack and get peace, conveniently some of them will probably get killed off and reduce the army maintenance costs. Other than that don't panic, it will take a few turns for your cottages to grow and courthouses/libraries to be built, but once they're done your economy should sort itself out.

[Shaka II]

Is that 5 to 6 cities in total? If so, that shouldn't be a problem with organized trait in the time preceding CS. I agree with uberfish. Hold on while the cottages grow out, probably go through all 6 cities and make sure that cottages are being worked, and shift from production to commerce/growth until you catch up in income.

Probably next time, make pottery more of a priority, getting the cottages down in the capital early and make sure not to limit growth. Monarchy is important for this reason to avoid the happy cap. Trade Alphabet for it. Use cheap garrison units like warriors for that purpose, while the axes are out doing their job. But I wouldn't get too committed to early wars, especially as Japanese. Grow vertically until you get CS and machinery. Then with your larger cities generating a strong cash flow, you can support a large army, while keeping science going full steam. The wave of Samurai and eventually catapults will take you to where you need to go.

Courthouses aren't so important in the early game, especially not the core, since the distance penalty is not much. It's in that expansion phase when you have 10 to 12 cites, and the combination of city number and distance start to hurt, along with city size. Eventually most cities will have courthouses, but in the core, other buildings may have priority like barracks, libraries, granaries, forges, aqueducts. When there's nothing else to build, at peace, build the courthouses, also as prep for the FP.

Three cities is about all a normal civ will get, on pangea anyway. Axemen are good for taking a few barb cities away, or a few neighbor's cities. But I don't like to wage wage war in the early game at the expense of the economy. Wait for the Samurai. Let the AI make some fine cities for you. Just make sure to tell your troops not to pillage those hamlets and villages.

[Shaka II]

Also, do a check of finances (F2) to see what proportion your units are costing you. It sounds like you may have too many units, preventing you from spending on science. If so, you might disband the warriors and keep the axemen, for example.

An easy trap to fall into in the early game is being able to build only units, but not buildings, because research has fallen behind. Going to pottery and then writing early usually avoids that scenario by allowing cottages, granaries, and libraries all working to promote growth in size, income, science, cultural borders.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

I actually got pottery from a hut ultra early and immediately proceeded to cottage my capital. It was probably the 2nd tech I got. And, yes I only have 6 cities total, however pop rushing is really not much of an option as my happiness cap is already pushed to the limit in all cities. I have no luxuries or commerce generating specials except one clams.

Im guessing its probably the happiness issue that is preventing me from working enough cottage tiles to get the full benefit. My size three cities have already hit the cap and my capital is only size six and is 2 over the cap.

My research path is pretty close to what you suggest Shaka, as I went directly to writing and COL after bronze. I did lose an early city to barbarians, but I don't think it set me back too much as I was able to capture plenty of others. I didn't build any granaries, since my cities will not grow anyway due to unhappiness. I will try to trade for monarchy and make a comeback, but it looks like it will be really difficult. Washington also has an awesome shrine city with 4 gold hills, but it is very well defended and I have already failed once to take it (I burned two city raider 3 axeman without even damaging an archer then retreated). If I can take this out with samurai I might have a good chance to win.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Shaka II]

Using up some of those axemen on Washington would be a way of accomplishing both the goal of obtaining a lucrative foreign capital and lowering the unit cost.

As far as working the tiles, a switch to Monarchy will allow the capital to keep growing, until it hits the health cap, but that's where the granary and/or aqueduct come in to play too. Usually you can use the warriors as cheap garrison units. Ultimately, when the size of the empire gets to the point where you acquire enough happy and health resources, hereditary rule is no longer important. But until then it can let a pop limited size 6 city become a size 12 powerhouse by the time you get CS or shortly after.

[make]

PaganPaulwhisky, youre game sound very familiar to one I played once.

My cities also stoped growing beyond size 3, 4 or 5 and poprushing wasnt an acceptable option because my already ruined economy wouldnt allow enslaving of any pops that was working the cottages, and because the happiness was already the main problem.

So what do you do. Well, I gave up and decided that the lesson learned was enough for that game. Sometimes its just not worth the time to beat a dead horse to run faster, but thats not much of an advice.

So what can you do.

Monarchy
As mentioned, try to get monarchy ASAP go deal with unhappiness and get more people to work cottages. However, this can take forever if youre down to 10% science and cant trade fore it.

Conquest
I understand that you have a good size army so I would look around to see where the nearest luxury resource is and then devolop a plan to take control of it very soon.

Perhaps you can convince somebody to join you in the war against Cathy, sit back and defend for a while, letting youre ally take the beating. Then when Cathy is on the defensive, move in and take a city from her with a luxury resource.

Religion
Another option is religion. If it has spread to you, consider adopting it and spread it to all youre cities. Switch to organized religion and be a builder until youre economy is good again.
Be aware that this can be dangerous if you upset a powerfull neighbore who have a different religion.

Trade
Consider trading any health og strategic resource for luxury resources, even if you only have one of them. Its not a good solution, but desperate situations sometimes calls for desperat solutions.

Hang in there and dont loose heart if the game beats you. Its emperor after all, no shame in loosing here. I salute you for trying.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by make
Monarchy
As mentioned, try to get monarchy ASAP go deal with unhappiness and get more people to work cottages. However, this can take forever if youre down to 10% science and cant trade fore it.

For me this is the last option to deal with unhappiness.

First is resources and multipliers
Second is religion and temples
Third is theatres and culture.

If you have no alternative then it is probably the only option but I would strongly recommend looking more closely at the other three first

[PaganPaulwhisky]

Unfortunately Monarchy is the only valid option for me right now. With my troop size I think it will work well enough.

1) I have no luxuries and do not have the capacity to take extra cities at this point due to finances, nor do I have calendar to make use of most of them.

2) I have no shrine and did not found a religion. Judaism spread to my capital, but I do not have monothesim so I currrently cannot build missionaries and spread the religion. I only have the one city with religion.

3) I don't have drama, so I cannot build theatres either, and my science rate is so low that the culture slider will not be an effective solution for some time.

My only bargaining chips are alphabet and CS in about 5 turns. I absolutely need monarchy since I will have little time to improve research while fighting a war. I don't think anyone has drama so I cannot trade for that. Someone might have just discovered calender so that may be an option in the near future.

[couerdelion]

The AI tends to go for Calendar early if they have the resources nearby. I don't think I have ever got to this one first.

CS/Bureaucracy should help your economy as long as your capital has half-decent commerce.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by PaganPaulwhisky
Unfortunately Monarchy is the only valid option for me right now. With my troop size I think it will work well enough.

1) I have no luxuries and do not have the capacity to take extra cities at this point due to finances, nor do I have calendar to make use of most of them.

2) I have no shrine and did not found a religion. Judaism spread to my capital, but I do not have monothesim so I currrently cannot build missionaries and spread the religion. I only have the one city with religion.

3) I don't have drama, so I cannot build theatres either, and my science rate is so low that the culture slider will not be an effective solution for some time.

My only bargaining chips are alphabet and CS in about 5 turns. I absolutely need monarchy since I will have little time to improve research while fighting a war. I don't think anyone has drama so I cannot trade for that. Someone might have just discovered calender so that may be an option in the near future.

These are the reasons why Monarchy is so important. Its quite a while before theaters and some of the other options are available. Also, if you have wine, Monarchy allows winery. But mainly its the ability to use cheap garrison units to provide happiness. At +1 supply cost per garrison unit, it allows you to work an extra tile. If that tile has a cottage/hamlet/village or mine on it, it brings in about 3 gold on average or about 3 hammers, so there is a net savings. With 3 warriors, which otherwise might be disbanded, the savings is three times as much. Do that in your biggest two or three cities, and the effects really add up. Also, it allows you to trade happiness resources for health resources, in case it is health that is limiting your pop. Very flexible. Also, its very safe, since you can now afford to keep more units, since their supply is offset greatly by the returns of greater commerce and production. I've had a size 12 capital that would otherwise be a size 7 capital without Monarchy.

It isn't until Constitution that Representation is allowed, and that is a long, long time away. Even then you have to be careful about pulling the plug on Hereditary Rule. +3 happiness in the 5 largest is good for most, but not necessarily the capital and 2nd largest city. If you have to spend 10% or 20% on the culture slider to keep your civ happy, then that is 10% or 20% less you'll be spending on science.

If there's a war going on, it can be a chore to keep the Capital happy. Just saying that Hereditary Rule can have a long shelf life and the earlier that it is acquired the better. But I like to trade for it using Alphabet. Likewise, I usually trade for iron working, unless I'm Romans, in which case I may go directly for IW. Sometimes, If I have a tech lead, then I'll hold off trading Alphabet until one other civ has it, back filling, using Monarchy or Iron Working for trade. Other times I've have been busy building a wonder like the Pyramids or Oracle, and am playing catch up in tech, so Alphabet gets used for trade ASAP.

[Shaka II]

Now is a good time to trade Alphabet, just before you have CS.

Civil Service is one of those techs that the AI usually gets to late like Alphabet, so I like to hold off from trading it until one other civ has it, to maximize my monopoly on Bureacracy.

After CS, its' usually Machinery for Macemen and Crossbowmen. Paper is another tech that is useful for trading, but it is relatively cheap, so often has to be combined with another tech to trade for something.

Usually, Alphabet, CS, Paper, Education, and Liberalism is a good primary path, that allows tech trading with the AI, though in many games I shoot straight for Gunpowder, Chemistry and Steel, neglecting Education all together, until later. Or as Blake has taught, go for Gunpowder and use Liberalism to get Chemistry. Or if you're way ahead in tech, go for Chemistry and use Liberalism to get Steel. My present game. One of the advantages of having both Pyramids and GL in the Capital, with Academy and Bureacracy.