Spaceship comparison game

[rjmatsleepers]

Here is a save for a comparison game to explore different approaches to building the spaceship. The game is continents, temperate and monarch. Underneath your red beard, you are Elizabeth I of England. The starting position is on a coast, with a river and some flood plains. Two specials are visible already. I haven't looked any further. In particular I don't know who the AI civs are or which ones share our real estate. I have no idea whether this is a good starting position!

I suggest we pause for review at various points - perhaps at AD1 and at the discovery of Rocketry. Keep as full a log as you feel comfortable with, but certainly let everyone know your general strategy (eg CS slingshot), what you get from huts, which wonders you build (and when) and anything (good or bad) that happened during the game that influences the result.

We're trying to win by building the spaceship. If you think the fastest way to build it is to dominate the world that's OK, but please stop short of any other victory.

Good luck everyone.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

I've begun my attempt, but I won't say too much for the time being to try to avoid spoilers.

I decided to start with my usual CS slingshot - Stonehenge for GPPs; CoL with my first GP; Civil Service with the Oracle. I followed this by making a bee line for Literacy and building the Great Library. I am growing more and more doubtful about this approach, so it will be interesting to compare with others.

I have played a rather muddled middle section, including a small war. I decided to try out my spaceship theories by going hell for leather for Rocketry. I am now only a few turns away from it, but lacking much of the good production infrastructure. It will be interesting to see how it goes.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Swiss Pauli]

I'll have a go this week running Usuf from late renaissance. What's the game speed?

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
I'll have a go this week running Usuf from late renaissance. What's the game speed?

The speed is "normal" - I rarely change the default settings

RJM at Sleeper's

[Swiss Pauli]

Went to start and cIV can't seem to find the save, even after unblocking the file then restarting the PC. Odd.

[solo]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
Went to start and cIV can't seem to find the save, even after unblocking the file then restarting the PC. Odd.

The same thing happened to me, and I don't know why. I solved the problem by doing the following:

1) Start the game using the game CD and then exit to desktop, but leave the CD in its drive.

2) With windows explorer go to the folder in which you placed the savegame and click (maybe double click for you) on the file you got from RJM.

3) This should start up his game, and you can play on from there. Any saves you make when taking a break from playing will be visible and can be loaded in the normal way later on when you want to continue your game.


RJM,

I have played my game out to 1000 AD so far and did not use the CS slingshot. Lots of infrastructure though, and 4 good early wonders: Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, Colossus and the Great Library. I have 6 cities, (one, courtesy of the barbs) and am about to start on Oxford.

My big mistake so far was forgetting to switch to Bureaucracy right after learning Civil Service! Oh well. This will probably cost me about 10 moves or so, but now I've fixed that problem and look forward to seeing how much science I can generate.

London is in a great site and let's just say that the situation is unsual for a continents game. Later on, I plan to go direct to Computers first, so this will be a good comparison. I am keeping a fairly detailed log.

[rjmatsleepers]

I have played on to the point where I discover Rocketry. There appears to be a difficulty with my approach on this map which others may or may not experience.

Anyway, I'm starting to build Apollo, but because of the order I've researched the techs I'm very short of hammers - no factories, railways or power.

BTW, is there something I have done to make the save difficult to use? I have made a number of cosmetic changes to the XML - new great people, new cities and some changes in the diplomacy text. As far as I know, these should not change the game play or have an impact on the save.

Solo, I think your choice of wonders will be more successful than mine. I've become quite disenchanted with the Oracle, whereas Colossus and Great Lighthouse give you lots of direct commerce benefit. Also the Great Engineer points from the Pyramids make life easier.

As you say, London is a good city site. I'm currently getting just over 600 beakers per turn from it. This is at the low end of the range I have come to expect - in my best game I got just over 1,000 beakers per turn from my science city. With Colossus and Great Lighthouse I expect you will do better than 600 per turn. The limiting factor for me is not the site, but hapiness and health levels which have restricted growth.

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

RJM,

I also start Apollo before getting the techs needed for factories, rails and power. After a beeline to Physics, my research path in this one continued with Gunpowder, Chemistry, (in case I'm attacked), Biology, Medicine, (to grow to full size), Electricity, Radio, Computers, Steel, Riflery, Artillery and Rocketry. While building Apollo and the Ironworks I filled in with Steam Power ---> Plastics.

I have finished my game, and was playing rather light on defense which ended up in my being attacked 3 times, by Monty, then Caeser and finally by Louis. My colony was destroyed but my home cities held out, so the wars did not interrupt progress towards Apollo much at all. I was surprised Catherine did not join the regular crew of AI backstabbers, but I did myself some good by bribing her at every opportunity to attack the others!

I hope others having trouble at first with your save have not given up, because this was a very enjoyable game, and the situation was very suitable for those who prefer building to fighting.

I actually moved my original settler up 1 tile to be in reach of the clams before founding London. With clams, wheat and all those floodplains, London was an ideal site for generating a lot of Great Scientists. All my GP's were added to that city, so I ended up with an approach very similar to OCC, except for some extra cities.

Early happiness and health problems could not be avoided in this setup. There was not much variety on the home continent and this hampered early progress. I have not played many non-OCC games yet, so do not know how well my result will stack up. Most techs after Education were being acquired every 4 or 5 turns, and I think the longest research time was 7 turns for Fusion. I had a pretty good science level for a few turns after building the Taj Mahal, where a turn or two less was needed for each tech!

I have mostly been playing at Marathon speed, and have finished earlier with that, but Marathon goes on forever and there are many more turns to work with.

[rjmatsleepers]

I also got attacked by Monty. I beat off the initial attack and then made the foolish decision to punish him by destroying a couple of small cities he had established. The net result was all my lovely infantry and artillery were out of position when the second wave of attacks came and I lost London. (I had no railroads to move my units quickly.) I decided to go back to the point where I discovered Rocketry and replay from there.

However, before doing so, I tried your approach on the starting position. I built the Pyramids, used my first GE to build the Great Lighthouse and the second to build Colossus. It is clear that this combination of wonders will have a long term benefit, but they take a while to kick in - having more trade routes doesn't help if you have nowhere to trade with! Also, I found the lack of religion a bit strange. I will probably play this version through to Rocketry as a comparison.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Swiss Pauli]

Not gonna get the chance to play this week. Maybe next week.

[solo]

Some spoiler info to follow:

RJM,

I opened with two workers and a settler, to get the second city down quickly next to the copper across from London. After building a few axemen in York to guard against barbs I built a lighthouse and started immediately on the GL wonder.

Meanwhile, I chopped one more settler out of London to found a third city in the south to use to build the Pyramids. After connecting to the Stone, I chopped the Pyramids using the tundra trees in the south. Stone adds more shields for each chop so the Pyramids were ready just in time to continue city growth.

Meanwhile my explorations to the north told me I could delay the next few cities, so London made a galley to explore and look for the AI. I could only locate Mansa to the north, but one AI contact was enough to get 3 good trade routes for each of my coastal cities.

Afterwards it was just a matter of adding more commerce before getting up to 6 cities in time for building universities.

Although I was attacked by more AI, my home cities never came under fire. I lost a few workboats and considered these minor losses to be lucky. One reason for establishing my colony was to use it as bait for the inevitable AI attacks. Its loss later was shruggable and allowed my home cities to continue to build. My only regret was losing the extra resources the colony had provided during its short lifespan. Once it was gone, I had to beef up the home defenses a bit.

I see 12 dwonloads of your start and hope to see many others join in during the next week.

[rjmatsleepers]

Some spoiler info in this post too.

I replayed from the discovery of Rocketry. I was a bit behind, but hopeful that I could catch up. Unfortunately, when I discovered Robotics, I realised that my high production cities were too far south to build the space elevator. I had to try to build it in my science city which hit my research rate. Coupled with a lack of coal, this convinced me that I was not going to win the space race. I was losing gracefully, but continued just to see how close I could get. Then in the 1940s, Monty declared war and landed an overwhelming force of tanks, cavalry, artillery and infantry. He took 3 of my cities and destroyed my economy before offering peace. Eventually Julius launched in 1980.

I have saves from AD1, the discovery of Rocketry and the turn before Jules launched which can be posted when we want to compare. I have a rather poor log - I get a bit engrossed and forget to make entries. Fortunately, the game itself keeps note of some things!

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

Pyramids, Lighthouse and Colossus

Solo,

I mentioned that I replayed the start position, going for Pyramids and then using Great Engineers for other wonders. The challenge I found with this approach was hapiness and the lack of religion to keep the citizens working. I wonder whether it would be better to use a spiritual, phiosophical leader (ie Saladin). This would virtually ensure an early religion and the increased hapiness would probably compensate for the reduced commerce from a non-financial leader.

RJM at Sleeper's

[solo]

RJM,

For me Representation more than makes up for the lack of an early religion, since it adds 3 happiness levels while also boosting beakers. In SS games, where I don't want wars, I usually avoid religions to improve trading opportunities. You can still build and benefit from temples and monasteries without converting, and happiness can be maintained by luxuries and other city improvements. Once Currency is obtained, finances are no longer much of a problem since the AI are always ready to part with all of their gold for any techs you care to sell them.

I have played with religion, too, and this works better with leaders such as Saladin and Gandhi. I have had excellent results with both in OCC games. In games with those leaders I always end up building the Oracle for some sort of slingshot, but also end up somewhat behind in city development, so there is a trade off by doing this.

For me the two most useful techs to start normal speed games with are Mining and Fishing, which combine very well with Elizabeth's two excellent traits!

I have made saves at the points you mentioned but have not written up my logs yet. I also tend to forget to write down events when I should, since a sudden war can be very distracting! For now, I will say that I did a bit better than Julius in my own game.

Just out of curiosity and for sake of comparison, I think I will replay this one from the start using the CS slingshot. I'd like to compare how things progress.

One thing I did change in this game was to go against my advice to you in your previous thread, which was to build the Ironworks in the capital. I was ready to do this, but the game reminded me that I already had two National wonders there (Oxford and National Epic), so I put it in another city instead. I would not have completed the Ironworks in London by the time Rocketry was discovered anyways; so building it elsewhere worked out even better, since there were usually two big items I had to build at the same time near the end.

[solo]

Spolier info to follow:

Here is my log. Attached is a zip file containing 3 saves, one made at 1 AD, shortly before completing the Great Library and the Colossus, the second made at 1300 which shows my colony while researching Electricity and the third one at 1838, the turn before SS completion. I forgot to make a save when discovery Rocketry.

4000 London founded, and some stone is revealed. I decide to go for another city to build the Pyramids asap, so start building a worker. My warrior heads south.

3920 hut – 26g, some fish revealed

3820 some cows revealed, plus a river and a good coastal location for city #2.

3720 another fish revealed, but tundra has also come into view.

3640 wolves appear, so I fortify

3600 wolves defeated, and 2 silver revealed, but the surrounding terrain is all tundra

3520 another silver revealed in a more hopeless spot. It might as well have been on the moon.

3440 Bronze Working, hut – map, some copper, a fish and many ocean tiles revealed

3400 worker – starts chopping another

3200 Another copper appears across from London near the fish. I change my mind for city #2’s location, since I want some axemen to guard against barbarians.

3120 The Wheel

3080 worker – starts building a road to the copper

2840 after surviving a close battle with bears, my warrior finds another hut north of London which produces Agriculture

2760 Pottery, warrior fights some panthers and gains some experience

2720 settler

2680 York founded, now the copper can be mined

2600 warrior reveals some gems and marble. City #4 will try to claim both later when it is time to build the Great Library.

2560 copper mine ready, York suspends work on warrior to build an axeman.

2520 warrior reveals some clams, wheat and another hut to the north. Here is where city #5 will go. There do not appear to be any AI on the home continent, so cities 4 and 5 can be delayed.

2400 Lon – settler

2360 Sailing, York – axeman, which heads south to protect the second settler and the third city.

2320 York – warrior, who also heads south, Nottingham founded. Three cities is plenty for now, else research will suffer. Nottingham will build the Pyramids once the stone is ready.

2280 hut – 56g

2160 York – axeman, this one heads north to explore the rest of the western coast.

2120 Masonry, barb town of Hsung-nu discovered. I can not believe how ideally it has been located, since it is within range of 2 gems, some fish and a cow. Later I find out it also has clams. I will capture this to complete my quota of 6 cities, the number needed to build Oxford later on.

1880 Lon – galley, time to look for the AI, it is unusual not to find any on the home continent. By this time usually 3 or 4 have been encountered.

1840 Nott – warrior, to be used as a garrison

1760 York – lighthouse, now I have a good chance to finish the Great Lighthouse first.

1720 Writing, Lon – warrior, who will garrison London, we can not neglect the defense of our capital!

1440 Mansa located just north of the home continent, open borders are arranged

1080 Lon – library, now the parade of Great Scientists can begin

975 Alphabet, nothing worth trading for yet with Mansa. I am quite sad that only one AI has been located, as being first to Alphabet will not really help me much this game.

900 Lon – workboat, usually I start out the game with a workboat with Elizabeth, but floodplains provided enough extra early food. I also wanted a very early start for cottages, which one settler has been adding on as London grows.

875 York – Great Lighthouse, now trade picks up!

825 Nott – The Pyramids, now cities can continue to grow, revolution

800 Representation, of course

725 York – workboat

675 Alphabet to Mansa for Mysticism, Hunting, Animal Husbandry

650 Metal Casting, with copper available a forge and the Colossus look like the next best thing to do, before moving onto Literature for the Great Library. Metal Casting has good trading value, too, and will allow me to pick up some more techs from Mansa.

600 Lon – Great Scientist #1, creates the Academy

575 Polytheism, Lon – granary, York – axeman

525 Nott – settler, time to get the marble and gems

500 Literature

475 York – worker, Priesthood

450 Hastings founded. I was not happy with this city’s location. I could not claim both the gems and marble and still be on the coast or near any good sources of food. This site was also surrounded by jungle, so this city would never grow quickly. Lon – axeman. Literature and Metal Casting to Mansa for Mathematics, Iron Working, Archery. Iron revealed north of London.

400 Nott – workboat

350 Code of Laws

300 York – settlers, time for city #5 up north before Mansa crosses over and steals its great location from me.

225 Canterbury founded among wheat, clams and horses

175 York – barracks, time for some swordsmen to add to the attack on Hsung-nu, the barb city I want as my 6th.

125 Hast – library

100 York – axeman, Nott – forge, making these early makes everything else a bit cheaper.

25 York – axeman

That’s it before the BC years. AD years follow:

1 Civil Service – as mentioned earlier I forget to switch to Bureaucracy! I don’t notice this until I have Liberalism, so this dumb move cost me many turns of research!

25 Lon – Great Library. Civil Service to Mansa for Monotheism, Meditation, Compass, good now harbors can be built

100 Lon – GS, joins city

125 Lon – swordsman, York – swordsman, Nott – The Colossus, all early wonders are now complete. I would like to add the Hanging Gardens, too, but have missed out on that one.

150 Cant – library

175 Paper

200 Paper to Mansa for Currency + 30g, finances are now all set. All attackers (2 swordsmen and 4 axemen) are in position and attack Hsung-nu, which is defended by 3 archers. Each swordsman takes out an archer, then it takes two axemen to kill the remaining archer, and I get a great city, plus 95g and a worker as plunder! I will not need copper for awhile, so trade it to Mansa for Ivory and 3gpt.

250 Nott – harbor, Hast – granary, must be first for this slow growing city.

300 York – harbor

325 Lon – harbor, harbors are great, so they must not be delayed! Nott – GE, joins London, as will every Great Person produced during this game.

375 Lon – workboat, this will replace the one killed by a barb galley. Their revenge, I guess for giving up Hsung-nu.

425 Nott - library, now it’s a rush to get libraries in all 6 cities so that universities can be started right after Education is learned.

475 wheat to Mansa for crab, York – library

520 Nott – galley, to guard against that pesky barb galley

540 Education, Nott – archer, Cant – harbor, Lon – GS joins city

560 Lon – forge, York – worker

600 Hsu – library, a little late, but it was best to make sure I could capture this city before attacking it.

640 Philosophy, Taoism founded, I refuse to convert. The missionary will become a gift for Mansa. Education to Mansa for Drama, Construction, Machinery, world map and 60g. Mansa has not found any other AI, either. I can’t wait to get to Optics for caravels.

660 Lon – university
680 Calendar, will be needed later for the Astronomy freebie.

700 Lon – workboat, headed for Hsung-nu!

720 Nott – university

740 Optics, York – university

800 Nott – worker, Cant – university

820 York – caravel

840 Lon – colosseum

860 Caesar – Literature, Code of Laws and Drama for Monarchy, Horseback Riding

880 Liberalism, Astronomy as the free tech. I switch now to Free Religion and notice I might do myself some good by switching to Bureaucracy and Caste System, too! Nott – lighthouse. Catherine – Literature, Drama & Philosophy for Feudalism. Mao – Literature for map and 20g. So almost all of the AI are bunched together on this continent! Thank goodness, we did not start among them, but now that they’re found I can start wheeling and dealing.

900 fish and gems to Mao for sugar and fur. fish and cow to Cathy for dye and banana.

920 horses to Cathy for 6 gpt. Gems to Caesar for rice. Monarchy and Liberalism to Mansa for Engineering

960 Lon – GS joins city

1010 Printing Press, Theology to French for 130g. Sometime back there I had made another caravel to explore towards the east. After finding the French, I also located a nice uninhabited island just to the south of them, and made a note to send a settler there later to create a colony. This island may turn up some resources we lack on the home continent.

1030 Cant – workboat. Theology to Caesar for 50g

1040 Drama to the Chinese as a gift

1050 Lon – observatory

1060 Nott – observatory, Hsung-nu – university. Gems to Louis for spices. Clams to Caesar for rice. Fish to Mao for 5gpt.

1070 Scientific Method, Lon – lighthouse, I am first to circumnavigate the world! Printing Press to Mansa for Divine Right

1080 Philosophy to Caesar for 80g, also to Louis for 50g, map. Cant – granary

1100 Philosophy to Mao for 30g. Nott – granary

1110 Philosophy to Monty for 20g. Hast – forge

1120 Code of Laws to Louis for 150g

1130 York – observatory

1140 Lon – Oxford University. Civil Service to Caesar for 50g

1150 Hsung – granary, Cant – lighthouse

1160 Physics GS joins London, Lon – settler. Paper and Engineering to Cathy for Guilds and 50g. Stone to Louis for gold and 8gpt

1170 Nott – GE, joins London. Calendar to Mansa for 20g

1180 Gunpowder. Paper to Monty for 30g. Gunpowder to Mansa for Banking

1190 York – granary, Hsung – workboat

1200 Chemistry, Nott – marketplace. Education to Caesar for 50g. CS to Louis for 40g.

1210 Lon – National Epic, this was delayed a bit, but I wanted a lot of scientists before risking the chance of more artists.

1220 Coventry founded. By the time I got there, Louis had already grabbed the best city site, so my colony had to be set up alongside his.

1230 Education to Cathy. Lon – temple, hut near my colony yields 46g

1240 Astronomy to Mansa for Economics and 10g. Divine Right to Mao for 60g

1250 Biology, Hsung – lighthouse

1260 Cant – forge

1270 Paper to Louis for 80g

1280 Lon – settler, this one will head south to claim the silver in the tundra. Nott – grocer. Lon – GS joins city.

1290 S Method to Mansa for Nationalism and 60g. Education to Mao for 30g. Uranium to Monty for 6gpt.

1300 Medicine, Printing Press to Cathy for Music and 30g

1310 Music to Mansa for 60g

1320 Education to Louis for 10g. Lon – grocer. Warwick founded among the wastelands and some silver. S Method to Cathy for 130g.

1330 York – forge, Nott – temple, Physics to Mansa for 100g

1340 Hast – observatory

1360 Electricity to Mansa for Constitution and 180g. Music to Caesar for 60g. Liberalism to Monty for 60g.

1400 Cant – observatory. Chemistry to Mansa for 270g. Physics to Cathy for 50g. Liberalism to Mao for 50g.

1410 Lon – The Taj Mahal, Nott – The Hermitage

1420 silver to Mao for sugar. Printing Pres to Mao for 10g. Radio, York – grocer, Hsung – aqueduct, Cov – library, Biology to Mansa for Corporation and 40g

1440 Electricity to Cathy for 20g. Nott – aqueduct, Cant – aqueduct, 10,000,000 citizens now, Liberalism to Louis for 50g

1450 Hast – aqueduct, Banking to Louis for 50g.

1460 Nott – bank, York – aqueduct, Cant – bank, Cov – workboat, Lon – GS joins city. Fish to Caesar for 5 gpt. Economics to Louis for 60g

1480 Physics to Monty. Computers, Lon – hospital, Hsung – observatory, Corporation to Louis for 70g. Liberalism to Caesar for 50g.

1490 Golden Age ends. Medicine to Mansa for Democracy and 70g. switch to Emancipation and Environmentalism.

1500 S Method to Louis for 90g

1505 Democracy to Cathy for Replaceable Parts and 50g. Steel

1510 Steel to Mansa for 140g. Physics to Louis for 110g.

1515 Rifling, Lon – lab. R Parts to Louis for 120g. Silver to Louis for horses and 10gpt.

1520 Marbles to Mansa for 6gpt.

1525 S Method to Mao for 60g.

1530 Nott – lab, Electricity to Louis for 100g.

1535 Artillery, York – lab

1540 Lon – market, Rifles to Mansa for 220g

1545 Cant – lab, Hsung – lab

1550 Nott – worker, Cov – granary. Biology to Louis for 230g

1555 Rocketry, Lon – bank, York – bank, Nott – worker, War – granary, S Method to Caesar for 100g. Biology to Monty for 60g.

1560 Hsung – harbor, Radio to Mansa for Steam Power and 40g. Biology to Mao for 50g. Medicine to Louis for 50g.

1570 Physics to Caesar for 50g. Steam to Cathy and Louis for 50g.

1575 War – workboat

1580 Electricity to Caesar for 70g

1585 Lon – GS joins city. Steam to Mao for 70g.

1590 Assembly Line. Monty declares war and attacks my colony. Radio to Louis for 70g. Assembly Line to Mansa for 60g. Medicine to Cathy to declare war on Monty.

1600 Monty destroys my colony, Coventry.

1615 Hsung – artillery, Radio to Cathy for 100g. Stone to Cathy for 4 gpt.

1620 Industrialization, two sources of aluminum found. Rifles to Louis for 160g.

1625 Louis declares war, the ungrateful twit! York – frigate. Artillery to Mansa for 80g.

Here I lost a page of my written log. I will fill in from memory. A few turns later, my friend Mansa declared war on Louis. Afterwards Caesar declared war on me but all he did was sink one workboat. Meanwhile London built the Apollo Program and the Internet, and Nottingham built the Ironworks. SS parts and military units were being built by the other cities. Research continued as follows: Satellites, Fiber Optics, Plastics, Robotics.

1790 War – library

1795 Fission, Radio to Mao for 50g

1800 Computers to Cathy for 180g

1802 Medicine to Caesar for 90g

1804 Hsung – SS Casing

1810 Fusion – GE joins London, Nott – The Three Gorges Dam

1812 Cant – SS Casing

1814 Peace with Montezuma.

1816 Refrigeration to Louis for 160g (peace made earlier)

1818 Lon – The Space Elevator

1820 Hast – SS Casing, Cant – mech infantry, Hsung – mech infantry, Lon – GS joins city

1822 Lon – mech inf

1824 Mass Media courtesy of the Internet

1826 Genetics, Lon – mech inf, Hsung – mech inf, War – workboat, Communism via the Internet.

1828 Nott – SS Engine, Cant – mech inf

1830 York – SS Docking Bay, Military Tradition via the Internet.

1832 Ecology

1840 SS completed. Score 25,777 for Agustus Caesar.