Which siege upgrade(s)

[eluciv]

Just wondering what folks view as the most effective siege weapon upgrades.

If I can upgrade twice after unit creation, I tend to pick mostly +20 collateral and +10 bombard. The collateral I pick mostly because it seems like it would enhance a siege weapon's most appealing characteristic - and it enables the bombard upgrade. However, even though I'm causing more collateral damage, the units pretty much get wiped by anything stronger than an archer or spearman. I have a feeling I could benefit more from a different combo.

I realize it's often best to have multiple types of upgraded units, but there has to be one that's more effective than the others. After all, I find that catapult (and cannon) usage is most useful for reducing city defense and weakening its defenders. I rarely use them in the open field, in which case the bombard upgrade is useless anyway.

Cats are also cheap, so maybe the disposable manner with which I use them isn't all that ineficient because it is pretty effective. I'd like to get more life out of them if possible, but I like the increased rate of city capture with the upgrades I use. I just can't figure out if I'm better served by not having to build 4 of them each time I want to capture another city. I've never had a cat or cannon earn more than 3 upgrades. Is that the norm?

[bobshiznit]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=148093&highlight=siege+weapons

[Jaybe]

I use Accuracy (to reduce those city defense bonuses faster) & Barrage I. Then I usually head for Drill (to enhance survivability in attacks) or more Barrage.

I don't use City Raider that much. While my methods may not be the MOST effective, I have my own house rules (e.g., my armor don't get City Raider promos - leaves a bad taste in my mouth).

[joncnunn]

Well, my cat's usually don't last long enough for this to be an issue.

That said, if it looks like it will immedately be used against a city, it gets something that benifits attacking the city right away.

City Raider is a very popular upgrade for my offensive units.

[Blake]

Against large stacks... use Barrage.
Against small stacks defending cities, use City Raider. (for large city defense stacks, barrage works better)
If the catapults are only for bombarding and you have other city attackers (ie Samuari, Grenades) use Accuracy.


Catapults in later medieval can't live long, they are either used as kamikazi's or never engage in combat, only bombarding. However it's entirely possible to get construction very early in the game, and city raider catapults will survive very well when the only city defenders are archers, spearmen and axemen. I've had catapults of this era earn 4 and even 5 upgrades.

[axisworks]

City raider doesn't really work in your favor much unless you get artillery REALLY early and are using that to attack riflemen and such. I've found that promo seems to work best with tanks and modern armor. I generally stick to collateral damage, and then bombard levels I and II, that way I don't have to haul around tons of slow-moving artillery with my faster-moving units.

[couerdelion]

Generally go for the extra collateral damage. Depending on the make up of the stack you're attacking, you might want to alternative cat attacks with one from a city buster. Particularly when fighting LB city defenders, the principle defender might quite happily soak up all of your cats so a big hitter could soften this one up sufficiently to allow later cat attacks to have more chance of a kill.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

I usually do a mix of collateral and city raider seige weapons with a bit more emphasis on city raider (esp with cannons). I find the bombard promotions to be rather useless since I always attack with enough of these guys to reduce city defenses to zero in one or two turns.

This may be a little off topic, but I find the drill promotion rather puzzling. Why would you pick this promotion for seige weapons? If you want survival wouldn't retreat promotion be a better option or do seige weapons not get this one? In my experience, drill promotions are crap. I always have better combat odds with combat promotions. If drill is supposed to aid in survival of your units, then how does lower combat odds translate to improved survivability? I rarely pick this promotion for any of my units so maybe someone can explain a situation that makes this promotion worthwhile.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by PaganPaulwhisky
If you want survival wouldn't retreat promotion be a better option or do seige weapons not get this one?

Seige weapons are not eligible for Flanking.

[Crankiest]

I think drill should be good for getting an extra crack in seeing as how most of the time they are on suicide missions when they aren't just bombarding. I haven't seen a good explanation or clear evidence of how drill and it's first strikes work. I've assumed it's like the old Magic Card ability.

That is one theory but mostly I just go for max collateral damage because that is what i use them for. Sacrafice a few siege weapons and everything else you should win easily.

I'm not keen on better bombardment because I am always slow in organizing. I rarely get enough troops in place before the first catapults have brought down the defenses.

[Ijuin]

Ok, assume that any undamaged, unpromoted unit has X hit points (where X is any integer--I don't know how many hit points units start with). During each round of combat, the following formula applies:

success% = (attack * bonuses) / {(attack * bonuses) + (defense * bonuses)}

The game generates a random number to decide which unit wins the round. The loser of the round loses one hit point. Successive rounds continue until one unit is either defeated or withdraws with one hit point remaining.

Most fighting promotions (combat, attack and defense bonuses) are a strict percentage multiplier to the unit's base attack/defense.

First strikes are like a "free round". A full first strike (the unit will say "one first strike/two first strikes/etc.) means that you get a round with a guaranteed victory--i.e. you are guaranteed to win the first round of combat and knock a hit point off of the enemy. This essentially means that all battles with a unit that has first strikes are equivalent to its opponents all having a -1 hit point penalty per first strike.

First strike CHANCES on the other hand mean that the computer still performs the die roll for the success percentage. If the first strike unit wins the round, then the result is the same as a normal first strike, but if the first strike unit LOSES the round, then it does not lose a hit point as it would in ordinary combat.

[uberfish]

Drill is best for units that are expected to have to fight with less than full strength. In my case this tends to be designated city/stack defence units such as longbows and machine guns, and also I often give it to tanks to complement their blitz ability.

Another rule of thumb: Siege weapons that are expected to win get city raider, siege that are expected to lose get barrage (and accuracy if you're running low on bombard capability. For some reason a badly damaged catapult can bombard defences as well as a full health one, this probably ought to be fixed.)

[PaganPaulwhisky]

I know how the first strike principle works, but my contention is that the drill promotions just don't seem worth it in my opinion. My combat odds are almost always worse when I select drill promotions over combat promotions so I don't understand why people choose this to help unit durability when the odds do not show that to be the case (maybe this changes with drill 3, as I have not really done many tests). Usually I just check combat odds with my drill promoted unit vrs. my combat promoted unit up to 2 promotions and the combat guy always has better odds.

I'm lazy and don't want to do any calculations on this (I get enough of that at work), so I would like to see some examples when the drill promotion works out to be better. I have a feeling it is not a common occurance.

[joncnunn]

Would you guys believe that I just now figured out how to bombard a city defenses with seige weapons and that it doesn't risk the unit?

All I'd been doing before is colateral damaging medium to big stacks with kamizikee seige weapons.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Don't worry, I think we've all done it. It's not intuitive (I said when I finally noticed the big red button).