Fascism doesn't belong in the tech tree

[Rook]

OK I submit to you guys with more knowledge governments than me.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by xmixmasterx
Technology is not simply about tools, it includes technique and the organization of society. People often overemphasize the differences between Democracy, Communism and Fascism in this respect. They are after all different means of organizing production. Democracy (or Republicanism) was of course the original method of organizing the Industrial economy. As much as some would like to debate its faults (i'm not saying here whether i agree with it ot not) socialism was a response to the brutality of Industrialism. Communism was the one form of socialism which had lasting organization over more than a year.

Um, no.

Democracy is not an alternative to communism. Communism is an economic model. In fact, there is nothing stopping the majority voting in communism (or at least socialism).

Fascism is more complicated because there isn't a strict definition for it. Some argues that Fascism includes a state controlled economy. Others contend that such is not necessary.

[xmixmasterx]

Of course, i'm talking here about capitalist democracy as few at this point believe at has to do with anything else. I wasn't talking about the communism that could have happened but the communism that did. Civilization at this point is really unconcerned about a communism that 'could' happen. So in that sense Democracy is an alternative to Communism. What do you think the fall of the Berlin Wall was?

It isn't that easy to define fascism, but it's different forms always revolve around a strict opposition to any form of socialism.

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by xmixmasterx
Of course, i'm talking here about capitalist democracy as few at this point believe at has to do with anything else. I wasn't talking about the communism that could have happened but the communism that did. Civilization at this point is really unconcerned about a communism that 'could' happen. So in that sense Democracy is an alternative to Communism. What do you think the fall of the Berlin Wall was?

It isn't that easy to define fascism, but it's different forms always revolve around a strict opposition to any form of socialism.

Hmm, I always saw the USSR under Stalin as a form of fascism...

fas·cism
n.
often Fascism
1. A. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
B. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

[jonta]

Well, if Fascism is not a part of the political correct path
that you like to play in Civ4.
What about the Manhattan Project, build in a modern
democratic state (you know) was that more of a step forwards, than when the germans opdated their infrastructure under the Fascist regime in the 30'ties

Dont get me wrong in saying nothing good about the
fascist in germany or elsewhere, my point is that nothing is only black or white, and i think you cannot do
a Technology-tree that is political correct, and that is not the idear of the game. You can be the nice one and lead a peacefull nation against a "startrip" or you can be a the evil one, killing millions on your way to fame.
Most likely you will do a little of both.

[Amarsir]

Originally posted by xmixmasterx
They were all too happy to discover rocket technology, chemistry and medicinal practices through operation paperclip.

Also, we learned to start giving our operations better names.

I jest of course, that was a good post.

Originally posted by Badtz Maru
A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Always good to include a definition for clarity. Unfortunately, the colloquial definition of "fascism" has seemed to devolve into "government by people who are really mean!" Which is quite a departure from it's origins with Mussolini. Speaking of whom, here's what he said on the subject:

" Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society. . . Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. . . The Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the 'ethic' State."

And therein lies not only the definition of fascism but also it's derivation. Both Mussolini and Hitler (who each independently had considered socialism early on) co-opted the criticisms that socialists make about capitalist democracies - that some are simply "left out." But they also didn't contend that a consciousness could arise accidently as Marx did. Fascism was created so a government could give the people what they need, without giving them "dangerous liberties."

The important thing relative to Civ IV is that Fascism didn't simply arise out of nowhere, nor was it always there. It was an idea that was crafted from other ideas of the time, and as such it does belong in the tech tree.

[Older than Dirt]

The term "Nazi" is an abbreviation for "National Socialist", nicht wahr? Fascism envisioned a kind of partnership between business and the government. There were quite a few aspects of the New Deal in the USA under FDR which fit the definition. Most were initially ruled unconstitutional. However, Fascism, especially in Germany, had very strong spiritual features. The Nazi's were not only virulently anti-Jewish, but also anti-Christian (at least anti-Evangelical Christian). Hitler promoted paganism and did all he could to suppress the God of the Bible. Look at the Nuremberg Rally. He even brought in Tibetan monks. Look at who supported him in the mideast and later came to power in such nations as Egypt. The Fascism of Hitler and of Franco in Spain were different. Neither would be fun to live in if your are Jewish or a Bible believing Christian, but I think we'd all jump at the chance to leave Hitler's domain for Franco's. As a form of government, fascism did not necessarily include "helping out evolution" by "cleansing the gene pool." The actual similarities in the two systems is remarkable. They just used different rhetoric to fool people. Is there any "ism" that is good?

[padillah]

Originally posted by Older than Dirt
Is there any "ism" that is good?

Something tells me that was a bad question to ask on this board.

Tom P.

[gdgrimm]

Originally posted by padillah


Something tells me that was a bad question to ask on this board.

Tom P.

Civilization-ism is good.

[Amarsir]

Skepticism

[Rook]

I have been thoroughly educated on this topic. I retract my original post and I shall now punish myself by not playing Civilization for 1 hour... yes, yes i know this is harsh. But, I must learn to research more before I post.

[Vaugula]

I have a real fascination (in a repulsed kind of way) with this form of government and so I have read a number of books on the topic. One of the best descriptions on what separates fascism from ordinary dictatorship I read was:

Dictatorship only requires that you endure the leader, Fascism requires that you love them.

Unfortunately I can't remember the title of this book.

[Son of David]

Europe is probably going to undergo a fascist revival at some point in the future. Apparently Helmut Khol recently went to Iran and said he agreed whole-heartedly with the Iranian President's comments on the Holocaust.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Solver
The tech tree isn't about technologies... it's about concepts too. No one says that fascism is a good thing, but it was a new and a significant concept.

Consider, the tech tree has many techs that aren't really technologies: liberalism, democracy, communism, literature, music, education, etc. These represent something else. The Education technology represents the advances of classical education along with universities, the techs of Communism, Democracy or Fascism represent the development and appearance of these ideas.

Fascism is really just a new spin on a very old idea. I am the boss; our race/civ ect is the best and everyone else is at best a vassal and at worst-slave or subhuman and to be kept under the yoke. It is no different than despotism with an additional undercurrent of nationallist brainwashing of the general public to believe that they have a representative government. As such it really should not be included on the tech tree and if it *MUST* be represented at all should replace slavery as a civic in the industrial/modern world.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Vaugula
I have a real fascination (in a repulsed kind of way) with this form of government and so I have read a number of books on the topic. One of the best descriptions on what separates fascism from ordinary dictatorship I read was:
Unfortunately I can't remember the title of this book.

That is a good quote, but is it really necessary for the leader to be loved? The true requirement is the appearance of the democratic ideals of western civilization. Fascists kept up the illusion even to the very end of the regimes of Hitler and Mussolini were the leaders of a representative government even though it was painfully obvious that this was not the case.