Fascism doesn't belong in the tech tree

[Imran Siddiqui]

t is no different than despotism with an additional undercurrent of nationallist brainwashing of the general public to believe that they have a representative government.

What?!

No Fascist citizen believed they had a representative government. In fact, Fascism was against all that. It was unabashedly anti-Enlightenment. Everything Mussolini and Hitler wrote was against the ideas of liberalism and communism. They believed democracy divided the people and Fascism is about unity of nation. Fascism was unabashedly totalitarianism. They would make every social organization and appartus of the state and alienate the individual with the only avenue for 'belonging' available to them was the great leader. And he was, in essense, the father of the country. Everyone knew it was totalitarian and some of that appealed to the people in Fascist states. It was less fractured and they felt more like the belonged because they all had the leader.

And it undoubtably was a new political theory. It wasn't just a new spin on an old idea, but a radical idea that the nation was all that there was and even family units should be subservient before the nation. If you read Mussolini, you'll see that he is detailing a new type of society, where the state is in charge of every aspect of peoples lives, and the collective is the only important thing (and this collective idea should triumph over class division created by BOTH capitalism and communism).

So it is far different than merely despotism with nationalism. I think it deserves a spot on the tech tree, along with Communism and other political ideologies.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

t is no different than despotism with an additional undercurrent of nationallist brainwashing of the general public to believe that they have a representative government.

What?!

No Fascist citizen believed they had a representative government. In fact, Fascism was against all that. It was unabashedly anti-Enlightenment. Everything Mussolini and Hitler wrote was against the ideas of liberalism and communism. They believed democracy divided the people and Fascism is about unity of nation. Fascism was unabashedly totalitarianism. They would make every social organization and appartus of the state and alienate the individual with the only avenue for 'belonging' available to them was the great leader. And he was, in essense, the father of the country. Everyone knew it was totalitarian and some of that appealed to the people in Fascist states. It was less fractured and they felt more like the belonged because they all had the leader.

And it undoubtably was a new political theory. It wasn't just a new spin on an old idea, but a radical idea that the nation was all that there was and even family units should be subservient before the nation. If you read Mussolini, you'll see that he is detailing a new type of society, where the state is in charge of every aspect of peoples lives, and the collective is the only important thing (and this collective idea should triumph over class division created by BOTH capitalism and communism).

So it is far different than merely despotism with nationalism. I think it deserves a spot on the tech tree, along with Communism and other political ideologies.

You are talking about the reality and the political philosophies of Hitler and Musollini, but you also have to realize that Facisim occured in both Italy and Germany with the hijacking of a democratic society. Hitler and Mussolini left just enough vestiges of the old infrastructure to maintain legitimacy to the masses while completly perverting the ideals of the former system.

[jonta]

Is this about CIV4 or the world outside ?

[xmixmasterx]

In any case, no other tech would allow you to build Mt. Rushmore.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
You are talking about the reality and the political philosophies of Hitler and Musollini, but you also have to realize that Facisim occured in both Italy and Germany with the hijacking of a democratic society. Hitler and Mussolini left just enough vestiges of the old infrastructure to maintain legitimacy to the masses while completly perverting the ideals of the former system.

You are insane. No one in Italy or Germany thought they were still living in a republic. They ALL understood that they were in a totalitarian system. And they (or at least a sizable population) supported the change of system.

And of course they left parts of the old infrastructure intact! The French Revolution is a lesson to everyone that if you totally remake everything, you'll end up with choas.

[Vaugula]

That is a good quote, but is it really necessary for the leader to be loved?

Well the book in question argued that this was very much the case. It talked about cult of the personality for the leader and how this pseudo religious fervour is a unique aspect of this form of government. Without this aspect a state isn't truly fascist and is just a garden variety dictatorship.

How do we apply this to civ 4? Well I guess you could claim that Police State is plenty good enough to represent this form of government but I think this doesn't really differentiate it from regimes like Stalin's USSR which has a decidedly dictorship feel. Perhaps we need some sort of religion that is a personality cult for the leader? That would allow Theocracy to be run which (I think) is closest to modelling the sort of thing which goes on under fascist regimes.

[CarnalCanaan]

How come no one's pointed out that fascism came to America, too? And fascism, as an ideology, is not inherently anti-democratic or anti-liberal. However, when fascism is applied to politics the results have been almost universally so.

There is such a thing as fascist architecture. The Coit Tower in San Francisco is a fine example. As is the post office here in Reno. And many other buildings, most of them intended to house government services, all around the country. There's a reason the designers put Mt. Rushmore under the Fascism tech.

Patriotism, Nationalism, Fascism--these are very interrelated concepts.

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui


You are insane. No one in Italy or Germany thought they were still living in a republic. They ALL understood that they were in a totalitarian system. And they (or at least a sizable population) supported the change of system.

And of course they left parts of the old infrastructure intact! The French Revolution is a lesson to everyone that if you totally remake everything, you'll end up with choas.

Hey dude you think what you want, but the average german citizen had no real idea of what hitler was really about. In 1928 Germany was in utter turmoil and they looked for a change in leadership, a strong leadership to be sure but one that would ultimately uphold the ideals of a democracy. Sadly the citizenry got a lot more that they bargained for.

What did the germans really support from hitler? They were looking for a way out of the great depression that STARTED in germany. Faced with TRIPLE diget inflation most citizens would have supported Satan rather than the currrent leadership.

[Trifna]

I do not think it is much about if fascism is a step further than whattever before, but rather that fascism follows what was before. What follows sometimes does so for the wrong reasons, but it still follows logically.

The Roman empire was seen as a good Republic, then it became (with criticism) an Empire, and then after its crash followed a serious disorganization from which localities tried to manage. They then "discovered" feodalism. Better? Well... whattever... it followed as leaders came out of the pack and got administrative tasks. After some time it started to become father-to-son affair, letting way to the formation of a filial-based formal nobility.

It's not showed like this in the tech tree, but we still see how such a social system was "discovered" and how it was consequent. One could say that fascism is some kind of equivalence where capitalism or whattever crashes.

[_BuRjaCi_]

Capitalism and faschism work fine together.

The police state in civ 4 is a good representation of many goverments. But its's too wide a concept
China ( police state + free market), Iran (police state or representative + theocracy) , USSR ( police state+state property ) all fit the bill but they are quite different.

Off-topic : What is Iran in cIV terms, the people *have* elections, I think only men can vote but I could be wrong
and there is a religius coouncil that ensures ( I think, please check this ) anything the people choose dosen't participate in any anti-constitutional changes ( but since this *is* an islamic republic that basicaly means they can undo almost anything ).

[EscapedGoat]

Well Rook, you know something? Fascism probably saved Europe from going over into complete social anarchy and chaos by dealing with the problem of the large Marxist parties.

That's actually quite perceptive!

Fascism has allways been the friend of capitalism against the evil boogeyman that is communism. Nothing quite scares a capitalist like communism does.

The most obvious example is Nazi Germany vs the Soviet Union, but examples abound, think about the Spanish civil war, Pinochet in South America, etc.

Europe is probably going to undergo a fascist revival at some point in the future

If any coutry is undergoing a "fascist revival" it's the US.

An unholy alliance of state power, private business, nationalism, a chosen people, military invasions and absolute arrogance and disregard for international law, institutions and treaties.

That could have been a description of Hitler Germany before WW2, but I was actually describing current day USA.

[jonta]

Originally posted by EscapedGoat

If any coutry is undergoing a "fascist revival" it's the US.

An unholy alliance of state power, private business, nationalism, a chosen people, military invasions and absolute arrogance and disregard for international law, institutions and treaties.

Thanks man, i was thinking the same thing, but you
sure knew how to put it

[xmixmasterx]

Good post EscapedGoat. The Spanish Civil War says a lot about fascism, democracy and communism. Perhaps the most telling event of the 20th century.

[Amarsir]

See what you started Rook?

Nothing quite scares a capitalist like communism does.

I think you'd have to qualify that. In the macro sense, it's patently absurd. It wasn't capitalist countries building walls to keep people in. In the micro sense it's more accurate, in the same way as the sentence "Nothing qulte scares a man with a wallet like a thief with a gun."

a chosen people

What do Jewish people have to do with it?

"A soft blend deftly woven to wrap you in a warm and fuzzy feeling." That could have been a description of Enya's latest single, but I was actually describing my sock. Similarity of description does not an equivalence make, and that's granting a pass on the accuracy of the descrition.

[Rook]

Originally posted by Amarsir
See what you started Rook? ...

And loving every minute of it.