Fascism doesn't belong in the tech tree

[Rook]

It should be a civic.

All other techs are a step forward in the development civilization, but fascism is more of a failure in the system. I am not saying it shouldn't be in the game. It should be in there with slavery as a civic, but as a tech that must be researched? No. If Fascism is an advancement in technology, then they might as well add Hitler as a Great Person.

[Solver]

The tech tree isn't about technologies... it's about concepts too. No one says that fascism is a good thing, but it was a new and a significant concept.

Consider, the tech tree has many techs that aren't really technologies: liberalism, democracy, communism, literature, music, education, etc. These represent something else. The Education technology represents the advances of classical education along with universities, the techs of Communism, Democracy or Fascism represent the development and appearance of these ideas.

[Son of David]

Well Rook, you know something? Fascism probably saved Europe from going over into complete social anarchy and chaos by dealing with the problem of the large Marxist parties.

As they say, everything happens for a reason.

[Unimatrix11]

WTF ?! And you call yourself Son of David ?! And british ?! But whatever... BTW the quote of Hitler in the german translation is a quote from "- German dictator" - dont ask me why they thought that would be more politcally correct... i dont think it is...

[Son of David]

I know, I know - I'm scating on thin ice. Maybe they'll 'David Irving' me.

[Rook]

Originally posted by Son of David
Well Rook, you know something? Fascism probably saved Europe from going over into complete social anarchy and chaos by dealing with the problem of the large Marxist parties.

As they say, everything happens for a reason.

Probably?

It's easy to sit back and speculate, but we will never know will we?

[Yosho]

I've got to say, one of the most disturbing things I ever saw in the game was when Benjamin Franklin offered to research Facism for me.

[fed1943]

Son of David:you are completely wrong(no offense).
Fascists wanted to fight communism,that's true,but actualy they were the best communism'propangandists.
In my country fascism prevailed a lot of years after IIWW;when it was put down,the communist parties were popular,but after a few years,or months,of democracy,they became weaker and weaker.
So,fascism,as communism,doesn't save anyone agaisnt any thing.
Best regards,

[kseecs16]

I think he may be referring to the fact that the aggression of the Fascists prevented communist uprisings in places like France, Spain, etc... not so much that Fascism itself was a force to eradicate communism in principle.

[General Ludd]

There is no such thing as "a step forward in the development civilization" Civilization isn't a linear path - you can't talk about forward or backward, and even if you could, fascism would have as much right to be a "forward step" as anything else. It certainly seems to be instep with humanity.

[Rook]

But back to the point you thread jackers

Does Fascism represent a step forward in government progress or a step back? If it is a step back, why are we forced to research it? I don't mind it being there as a civic you get from researching something else, but to me its a waste of beakers. Maybe I am putting too much emotion into it, but I think I have a point. I'm not trying to be politically correct either. I just think the tech tree should represent useful inventions, discoveries and concepts.

Is Fascism useful? Lets have a look at history. Are there any fascist governments that have lasted more than 50 years? I don't think so. Monarchs, democracies, republics, even communism have lasting governments.

Fascism is doomed to fail of its own shortcomings. It usually dies with the leader that is in power or soon after.

[Rook]

But back to the point you thread jackers

Does Fascism represent a step forward in government progress or a step back? If it is a step back, why are we forced to research it? I don't mind it being there as a civic you get from researching something else, but to me its a waste of beakers. Maybe I am putting too much emotion into it, but I think I have a point. I'm not trying to be politically correct either. I just think the tech tree should represent useful inventions, discoveries and concepts.

Is Fascism useful? Lets have a look at history. Are there any fascist governments that have lasted more than 50 years? I don't think so. Monarchs, democracies, republics, even communism have lasting governments.

Fascism is doomed to fail of its own shortcomings. It usually dies with the leader that is in power or soon after.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Rook
But back to the point you thread jackers

Does Fascism represent a step forward in government progress or a step back?

I don't think it's a question of forward or back. It's simply that Facism IS a step. It was discovered and used to the best of it's abilities.

... I just think the tech tree should represent useful inventions, discoveries and concepts.

Is Fascism useful? Lets have a look at history. Are there any fascist governments that have lasted more than 50 years? I don't think so. Monarchs, democracies, republics, even communism have lasting governments.

Fascism is doomed to fail of its own shortcomings. It usually dies with the leader that is in power or soon after.

So were bronze weapons, so let's get rid of Bronse Working. I don't have the tech tree in front of me but there are tons of discoveries that are found later to not have been the best way to do things. That doesn't mean we can't use anything until we are sure it's the best technology we could have come up with.

No, as a government Facism is not as usefull as some other political designs, but it was a step and has been taken. If it's not useful, don't discover it. But then, don't discover Bronse Working either, just wait for armored units.

Tom P.

[The keeper]

Perhaps a better name for the tech would be totalitarianism. There are many forms of government in which an elected or appointed official takes complete control of the government. Hitler in Germany, Mousalini in Italy, and Stalin in Russia are all forms of a totalitarian regime - but 3 distinct forms of government. (Some consider nazism to be facist, others do not.)

[SIZE=1]
Fascism is doomed to fail of its own shortcomings. It usually dies with the leader that is in power or soon after.

This is half-true. Any totalitarian regime where the leader dies without a hand-picked successor that already commands the respect of the people (or at least the army) will fall. Many monarchys of Europe fit the definition - but heridatary rule was the norm. Nazi Germany fell not because Hitler died, but because Germany lost the war - and the pride of the people fell at the same time.


Because Facism automatically brings up images of Nazi Germany - and with it the atrocities against humanity that the Nazi's commited, Facism has an extremely negitive view by the world's people.

I am not going to argue that the Facist regimes that we have seen in the recent history of the world were by any means good. But, Facism is still an idea - an idea that deserves to be included in the game

[xmixmasterx]

Technology is not simply about tools, it includes technique and the organization of society. People often overemphasize the differences between Democracy, Communism and Fascism in this respect. They are after all different means of organizing production. Democracy (or Republicanism) was of course the original method of organizing the Industrial economy. As much as some would like to debate its faults (i'm not saying here whether i agree with it ot not) socialism was a response to the brutality of Industrialism. Communism was the one form of socialism which had lasting organization over more than a year. Democracy had guaranteed freedom of expression (here defined as organization, association etc.) at the cost of freedom of economy (here defined as the guarantee of a means of existence, not laissez faire economics). (Of course this was not perfect as free expression was limited to the accepted citizens of society). The Communist response was to guarantee a freedom of economy, or a guaranteed means of existence (again, this didn't include the whole of society), while sacrificing freedom of expression. The result then, was that more people as a whole had what they required economically while fewer people could enjoy material excess.

The other effect of this was that people could not freely organize or associate as they felt was best suited. Nor could they express themselves critically towards those in power. As we all should know, the successes of Democracy come in that the freedom of expression allows for a more efficient development of economy and less stringent social relationships. The appearance of loyal opposition only adds to this efficiency as it brings to bear minor faults which can be corrected and improved upon. Communism is a modern form of dictatorship and very few could give critical advice to the dictator. Freedom of expression also allows for a more widespread critique of government (as long as the critique doesn't become too radical or widespread), which again can lead to more efficient governance as small changes will be made in organization and public relations. In a dictatorship you're risking jail for the most minor of criticism.

We should also note that with democracy came liberalism and conservatism. While certain sectors of society wanted to move things forward, others wanted to retain more traditional and classical practices. We have the left vs. the right. Now depending on the makeup of society this divide could be minor or have as severe consequences as the Reign of Terror. So in the sense of the increased radicalism of socialism in society you will in turn have an increased response of conservatism until it borders upon or becomes fascism (if you disagree with this, just look into the history of Spain). Fascism is as much a part of modern society as any other form of government, and it is an important development. Whether they admit it or not, the Americans have learned many things from nazi organization. They were all too happy to discover rocket technology, chemistry and medicinal practices through operation paperclip. And there was a respect for the quality of SS generals and infantry which can most clearly be seen in the post World War 2 fighting in Greece. Americans fought side by side with SS officers after the war was over to eliminate communist uprisings (which had actually fought against the spread of fascism in that country).

i don't think fascism was in any way positive, but in terms of modern civilization, it had an im portant impact on technology and organization which resounds today.