Civilization IV: Alpha Centauri II

[vee4473]

Originally posted by LordShiva


You're right. Unit workshops work alot better on alien planets than on earth...

They can work equally well on earth. I already pointed out how. Choosing to design an assault unit for a given situation is all part of a strategy game.

If you don't like that much flexibility, then yeah you wont like a workshop. Although as UR points out, the workshop doesn't have to be used.

[LordShiva]

That would make things really messy given the combat system. It'll have to keep track of which weapons or chassis or armour or whatever else have bonuses against which weapons or chassis or armour or whatever else. One of the nice things about the current model is that you know what units you need to counter the units the enemy builds. But when they're bringing a stack of what look like archers towards your city, you don't want to have to mouse over and then right click on each unit to see what particular weapon or chassis or armour or whatever else it has. Makes combat more of a crapshoot and less tactical.

[Trifna]

Would it be more, or less popular if such an expansion was done on Mars with an added competition for some Earth subsidies supporting factions?

[PrinceBimz]

What is the difference in SMAC's unit workshop or say MoO2 or the new GalCiv2 where you can design units? It all works the same and since those games pulled it off, so can a SMAC2. All they would really have to do is make an improved unit workshop, then those who never liked it in the first one, probably would in the sequel. If I remember correctly, there were over 10,000 possible unit designs in SMAC. It certainly gave the player a ton of options.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by LordShiva
That would make things really messy given the combat system. It'll have to keep track of which weapons or chassis or armour or whatever else have bonuses against which weapons or chassis or armour or whatever else.

The current combat system works fine. Units built from the workshop also have all that information available when you move the mouse pointer over them, just like stock units.

Originally posted by LordShiva
One of the nice things about the current model is that you know what units you need to counter the units the enemy builds.

I am not sure if I like that. In Civ, an archer is an archer is an archer. It's the same regardless of whom built it. That's a bit silly if you ask me.

Originally posted by LordShiva
Makes combat more of a crapshoot and less tactical.

The computer can do that for you. Currently it selects the best defender for you already. So that's no big deal.

[Kataphraktoi]

One of the nice things about the current model is that you know what units you need to counter the units the enemy builds.

You can tell at a glance how to counter a given unit as it is. Infact it is much easier because you can tell what its bonuses\negatives are without memorising every unit in the game.

Makes combat more of a crapshoot and less tactical.

I wonder if you have played SMAC?

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
I wonder if you have played SMAC?

I have. It was a while ago, but I don't remember unit-specific bonuses or promotions.

Didn't like it very much, for the record. The red terrain and the green lasers didn't really do it for me.

[WolfEyes]

I must be missing something here..

In cIV, complexity and lots of strategic choices are a good thing. In SMAC, it's a bad thing...

In cIV, bad/glitchy AI is understandable and ok because programming a good AI with a game as complex as cIV is a very hard task. In SMAC, a bad AI is a bad and unforgivable sin that condemns the game....

Seems a little one-sided to me...

[Senethro]

Originally posted by WolfEyes
I must be missing something here..

In cIV, complexity and lots of strategic choices are a good thing. In SMAC, it's a bad thing...

In cIV, bad/glitchy AI is understandable and ok because programming a good AI with a game as complex as cIV is a very hard task. In SMAC, a bad AI is a bad and unforgivable sin that condemns the game....

Seems a little one-sided to me...

You are about to enter another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mindlessness; a journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of irrationality - You have entered, the Fanboy Zone

[Badtz Maru]

Originally posted by LordShiva
OK... but why would I want to do it myself if it could be done for me?

Also, it's not like musketmen and cavalry use the same guns. Nor do Samurai and swordsmen use the same swords. How would a unit workshop model the differences between samurai and swordsmen, or warriors and Quechua and Jaguar Warriors, or Musketmen and Redcoats?

All of the units in Civ (except the Maceman I guess) have been significant parts of military history. So I'd rather they came pre-built, with names like "Cavalry" and "Cossack" than "Horse chassis with guy with musket sitting on it."

But a lot of us would like a better cavalry when they get rifling, something like USCW era dragoons. There's a lot of units that aren't modelled in Civ4 because it's fairly abstract and some combinations of equipment weren't used widely, or for very long. A lot of people enjoy Civ games because of the way they create alternate histories, and it would be fun to try weapon combinations that were never done in real life, i.e. mounted grenadiers, elephants with gunpowder weapons, etc. It would add more flexibility to the gameplay and tech system. If someone has all the techs for a knight but is lacking iron, why not let them make a knight with bronze armor/weapons, or allow someone a cheaper mounted unit which is not as heavily armored and thus slightly weaker?

As to the unique units, I'd suggest giving the civilization a unique tech that could be combined with the others to create the UU. The advantage of this would be the way the unique unit's abilities could be incorporated into other units for added alternate history goodness. Allow the Aztecs to use the macquahuitl with more units than just Jaguar unit - if they get horses in this reality, they could have mounted Jaguars.

Here's how I'd envision the construction of the special units you listed.

Samurai - Special Advanced Melee Training (Japanese Unique Component), Recurved Bow, Laminate Armor, Katana (Japanese Unique Component)

Jaguar - Advanced Melee Training, Macquahitl (Aztec Unique Component), Padded Armor

Quechua - Inca Shields (Inca Unique Component), Club

Redcoat - Special Advanced Gunpowder Training (English Unique Componenet), Musket

Advanced Training would be a kind of fill-in for bonuses that can't be attributed to equipment, i.e. the Redcoats. Advanced training would be available for most units to every civilization, but some civilizations would get a special training option for their unique unit.

With this system, Incans are no longer forced to do an extremely early rush to get the most out of their unique unit - the Inca Shield could be used with swords once they get Iron, and they'd have swordsmen with bonuses vs. archers. The English could have superior gunpowder units into modern times. The Japanese could use their special melee bonus to have superior spearmen and swordsmen, make a cheaper Samurai without the first strike ability (leave off the bow), or an improved mounted unit with the Katana.

This is all off the top of my head, I'm sure there's a few things that would need more refinement, but it would make for an interesting game. It's too much for Civ4, but I hope they do something similar to this with Civ5.

[LordShiva]

OK, that sounds interesting.

[MikeH]

unit workshop = something else that requires micromanagement = annoying and evil

[LordShiva]

Yes, too often interesting ideas fail to pass the "Can the interesting idea be translated into enhanced gameplay without annoyingness" test...

[PJayTycy]

I too think it's a lot easier to remember 6 chassis (infantry, rover, plane, helicopter, hovercraft, carrier-ship) and a list of special abillities. The armour and weapons, you don't really have to remember, they are just numbers that go up 1 by 1 (mostly).

In civ4 though, I have to remember 25+ units, atleast together with their "category" and better yet, with their bonusses against other units too. If I see a unit in civ4, I have to check its strength, category and bonusses (maybe logical to you, but I have to mouse-over everytime). Then, look in the tech tree where there might be a unit to counter it.

[vee4473]

Originally posted by MikeH
unit workshop = something else that requires micromanagement = annoying and evil

unit workshop = optional = no micro management required