How much should you buy rush?

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by spammurabi
Towns for rush buying can actually be cheaper than using workshops for production- 7 gold, +100% for Market, Grocer and Bank = 14 gold/turn. Rush buy something at 3:1 gold:hammers, you're getting ~4.7 hammers per town, +1 for US, for a total of 5.7, as opposed to a workshop or lumbermill which maxes out at 3 production a piece. If you've got the Kremlin, you can rush buy at the equivalent of ~10.4 hammers/town. Rush costs are also modified by factory, power, forge, resource bonuses, and organized religion, same as hammers.

This assumes that you're not building wonders (rush cost is x2) or national wonders (x1.5) or things on the first turn (x2). If you're looking for the fastest possible way to do things, ignore farm/mine combos, ignore workshops, just work as many towns as you can and rush rush rush.

The -50% WW of Police state is okay, but I think US is much more powerful. Production via commerce cities is much much faster than production via hammer cities at that point in the game.

-50% WW of police state means that all of those people refusing to work are back at work. I think that trumps US easily when you're at a time of war, yes? If you're going for a SS or culture win, you're probably right.

I think to determine how good the exchange rate is, we need to determine the average financial and production multipliers.

For a typical case with 50% multipliers for each, one has to pay 2 base commerce for each base hammer to make it a good deal. For a case with zero multipliers, it's a 3:1 ratio, and for a case with unity multipliers it's a 1.5:1 ratio. I think the first scenario is more typical of an average situation, so we need to take a look at what the average ratio is of base commerce to base production. If it's more than 2:1, it would seem like a good deal.

But I'm not sure what practical utility it has if you're spending 100% in the space race, or are waging war and war weariness forces you to change civics from US. A culture victory perhaps?

[platypotamus]

Originally posted by spammurabi
Towns for rush buying can actually be cheaper than using workshops for production- 7 gold, +100% for Market, Grocer and Bank = 14 gold/turn. Rush buy something at 3:1 gold:hammers, you're getting ~4.7 hammers per town, +1 for US, for a total of 5.7, as opposed to a workshop or lumbermill which maxes out at 3 production a piece. If you've got the Kremlin, you can rush buy at the equivalent of ~10.4 hammers/town. Rush costs are also modified by factory, power, forge, resource bonuses, and organized religion, same as hammers.

This assumes that you're not building wonders (rush cost is x2) or national wonders (x1.5) or things on the first turn (x2). If you're looking for the fastest possible way to do things, ignore farm/mine combos, ignore workshops, just work as many towns as you can and rush rush rush.

Wow, that's awesome

Just gotta watch out when space racing I suppose...

ShakaII
-50% WW of police state means that all of those people refusing to work are back at work. I think that trumps US easily when you're at a time of war, yes? If you're going for a SS or culture win, you're probably right.

Sounds like you fight your wars like I do We've got to achieve our military objectives more quickly methinks, so that WW isn't an issue.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by uberfish
4) As mentioned a couple of times already, new cities - the basic stuff like granaries and so on are very cheap and pay for themselves quickly.

I rush buy theatres, forges, and granaries in new cities. Other structures may or may not get rushed.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by platypotamus

Sounds like you fight your wars like I do We've got to achieve our military objectives more quickly methinks, so that WW isn't an issue.

Yes, that's the better way, sort of oscillating war. The AI does that also, probably for similar reasons, but that's just a guess. With police state, you don't have to be so careful of WW. It depends what type of game you're playing, but domination usually requires some extended wars. Also, when you have a superior miltary technology such as chemistry and steel, you can't have a quick war, because peace may allow the enemy to discover chemistry and even the odds. So, a steady push is often required.

I will say that in the late game, not running a high science budget, that US looks very strong. But even the unlikely best case, where every city has a market, grocer, and bank, if you're running a typical 60% science, 10% culture, the portion that sees the financial multiplier is only 30% of your income. So the net multiplier is 1 + 0.3*1 = 1.3 instead of 2. This makes US not look so strong.

On the other hand, there are times in the modern era when you are done research, e.g., have modern armor, and are not going for SS. So stopping all research for a 100% financial multiplier would look nice. After you've rush built an army, switch to police state and start the war.

But I prefer to end the games by around the time that Democracy and universal suffrage are discovered. Most cities do not even have banks, let alone markets and grocers, and certainly not factories. Fewer units is more fun.

[trev]

I switch to Universal Suffrage as soon as possible and veryquickly rushbuy marketplaces, banks, grocers because of their financial return, once my gold per turn rises substantially then I raise my scienc a bit and begin rushbuying the obsevatories, universities, cathredrals where I want culture pressure etc and units if urgent, usually I let hammers build units.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Is it ever *really* economically sound to rush-buy a bank? It can take 100 turns just to break even. I will do it occasionally to free the build queue for something else, especially if trying to enable Wall Street...which it can make sense to rush-buy as you can break even relatively quickly.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

Yeah US is pretty ineffective while waging war. I usually prep my wars with this civic by rush buying a bunch of units and then switching to police state. Its tough when you don't have facism though. Last game I had to stick with US throughout my wars. My cashflow plummeted from about +200 to -50 within the span of 15 - 20 turns towards the end. I had such a large reserve that it didn't matter much, but that WW is still really annoying. I had to rush buy everything at that point.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
Is it ever *really* economically sound to rush-buy a bank? It can take 100 turns just to break even. I will do it occasionally to free the build queue for something else, especially if trying to enable Wall Street...which it can make sense to rush-buy as you can break even relatively quickly.

I will certainly make sense if you have a shrine in the city although if that is the case then I guess you still won't rush buy because you will ALREADY have a bank there.

I guess it might make sense a lot of sense to rushbuy for a captured shrine city or even if you are a financial civ and get the banks at half price.

Out of interest, what is a normal breakeven period. When you consider that many people spend 120 hammers on a courthouse to save just 2 gold, doesn't that mean that 200 hammers on a bank to produce 4 gold is a good deal?

[Shaka II]

The worst is if the UN gets built and a resolution enforcing Universal Suffrage. That's a severe handicap if your going for a domination win. The best solution is to not wait until the UN is built. End the game before the modern era that is, which is usually the case on marathon. On normal speed, then you have to worry about the modern era usually. Mount Rushmore and jails in the bigger cities become a requirement to take the place of police state.

The Kremlin really makes US attractive, even at most science spending levels, so if one was playing well into the modern era, it would be a key wonder to get.

[rewster1]

I have a question... if you raze the city in which the UN is built, are its effects negated? Is there no longer a UN? Or does it continue to exist as a covert international ... uh, peace keeping organization?

[rewster1]

Ooh, another question for those who know... if you get -100% WW through Police State, Rushmore, and jails, do you then have NO WW?

[Quillan]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
Is it ever *really* economically sound to rush-buy a bank? It can take 100 turns just to break even.

Ah, but you are looking at it differently than I am. I do not ask "How long will it be before I earn back the money I'm spending on this?", rather I am asking "How quickly do I need to finish this and move on to building something else?" That determines whether I rush it or not. By the time I start using gold to rush production, I'm usually earning so much money empire-wide that it's not so much an issue.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by Quillan


Ah, but you are looking at it differently than I am. I do not ask "How long will it be before I earn back the money I'm spending on this?", rather I am asking "How quickly do I need to finish this and move on to building something else?" That determines whether I rush it or not. By the time I start using gold to rush production, I'm usually earning so much money empire-wide that it's not so much an issue.

It's a good point for something like a bank, though; if you don't need the money, and it's not going to pay for itself for the rest of the game, then why bother building it at all?

In general, I actually don't buy-rush very often except when I'm spiritual, mostly because I just don't want to give up the Representation-Statue of Liberty engine, that really drives my economy during the late game in most of my games. When I'm spiritual, I'll save up money for a while, switch civics, buy-rush everything I can, and then switch back to representitive; otherwise, I don't really buy-rush at all.

[uberfish]

Originally posted by rewster1
Ooh, another question for those who know... if you get -100% WW through Police State, Rushmore, and jails, do you then have NO WW?

yeah, that totally eliminates WW.

[Quillan]

Originally posted by Yosho
It's a good point for something like a bank, though; if you don't need the money, and it's not going to pay for itself for the rest of the game, then why bother building it at all?

Now, you're quite correct about the bank, and I probably would not rush one unless I need to finish a certain number of them to be able to build Wall Street (or I've decided to build Wall Street in a city that doesn't have a bank yet). Since I usually start on Wall Street right after I get the tech, well before I can adopt US, it's not an issue. If a city is building a bank, and I need to build something else, I'll usually just switch. I quite often rush other things, though. Airports, Drydocks, Temples/Cathedrals and Theaters are all very common items I rush to completion.