State Property?

[Zoid]

Or maybe Fez or Albert Speer?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Bautou
I think Civ4 is better in this respect with the civics system, as you can replicate this sort of 'communism' by taking Police State, State Property, and Slavery. Or not. Way more flexible.

Exactly - it is getting closer to Social Engineering in Alpha Centauri.

[Brad Mayer]

Apologies for being a bit off topic, but actually this is relevant to the core idea of the whole Civ series.

What the (very reasonable) post below says in a nutshell is: the human species has not yet attained the level of development to sustain communism. (And we are not referring here to the Soviet dystopia) That is very different from saying that it is a _utopia_, however.

Otherwise, we would all still be "naturally" practicing cannibailism, perhaps the first human 'ism' whose extensive and specialized practice likely played a key role in the advancement of the species. What could be more nutritious than consuming that which already contains the very ingredients of your own body?

No doubt back in the days of cannibalism there were those hopeless dreamers who looked forward to the day when cannabilism would be abolished. Everyone laughed at them while munching on a human thigh or brain, if not persecuting (and probably eating) them as dangerous subversives opposed to the "natural order" of eating other human beings.

It is beyond historical dispute that the very same thing held for slavery. Plato and Aristotle considered the condition of slavery completely normal and natural. Slavery was practiced extensively all the way until modern times.

Now together with cannibalism, slavery has been abolished. Why will it not also be true for the more "civilized" forms of consuming the humanity of other beings?

BTW, capitalism by its nature is impossible to regulate because the pursuit of profit _must_ have no limits, or else capitalist game over. The proof is seen today in that it is precisely "minimum wages, labor unions, government mandated safety regulations" and more that are being relentlessly rolled back and eliminated everywhere.

Oh, the game: State Property by itself is hardly "communism" (communism as defined by marxism HAS no state, remember, so there can be no 'state property'). This is both a conceptual and game play confusion, due surely to the fact that it comes along with the Communism tech. But is Mt. Rushmore inheriently Fascist ? (perhaps the Sioux think so :-)

Now if you are talking about replicating something along the lines of the old Soviet Union, then I think the fixed combination of Police State and State Property is key, with (surprise!) either Theology (during war) or Organized Religion (+ Kremlin) to really crank out improvements. Think 'Marxism' converted into a secular religion - hey, that's a mod idea. 'Liberalism' too!

Legal civic is actualy flexible: could be vassalage, bureaucracy (I mean, it is the Soviet Union after all) or nationalism. I could imagine after switching to State property, moving my capital to my largest city - in a large empire in modern era could easily be another than original capital - and switching to bureaucracy. Labor could be slavery, serfdom or caste system.

In fact with State Property + Bureaucracy + kremlin (to rush build the palace) you could strategically migrate your capital around the map wherever you need extra hammer production, maybe a big city close to your next victim :-) Even to another continent...

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"Ought to be" being the key phrase. In theory, communism is the perfect government, a utopia where everyone does what they are best at to the best of their ability, and what is best for everyone. In the real world, most people will only do the bare minimum required of them unless there is something in it for them. Theoretical Communism depends on the good nature of people... something that rarely wins out over a person's baser instincts. It also depends on the good nature of the people in power, something that no communist government has ever succeeded at... power corrupts. There hasn't been a single communist government that lived up to the marxist ideals. I seriously doubt there ever will be one.

That's why regulated Capitalism (with minimum wages, labor unions, government mandated safety regulations, etc) won out as the dominant and most successful government type of the 20th century. It plays to that baser nature by rewarding effort, initative, and talent.

[Odin]

The economic choices are too simplistic and falls for the neo-liberal nonsense that Capitalism = Free Market and Socialism = Planned Economy. The US was a capitalist planned economy during WW2, and there are several communities, Mondragon in Spain be the most well known, that have market socialist economies.

That's why regulated Capitalism (with minimum wages, labor unions, government mandated safety regulations, etc) won out as the dominant and most successful government type of the 20th century. It plays to that baser nature by rewarding effort, initative, and talent.

Regulated capitalism is becoming unworkable because globalization is allowing companies to move to 3rd world countries if they don't like a countries regulations, forcing a run to the bottom.

[Yosho]

Getting away from the political discussion, let me say that I think that state property is a bit too strong in this game. Saves a ton of money both on distance cost, AND on the civcs cost, AND brings you more food? All the other civics, it's worth switching back and fourth (especally if you're spiritual), but even for a moderatly sized empire state property is basically always better then either free trade or mercintilism, and the only time enviormentalism is worth considering is if you really desperate to improve your happiness and health.

Perhaps it would be better balanced if State Property had a slightly higher civic upkeep cost or something?

[Amarsir]

Originally posted by Brad Mayer
BTW, capitalism by its nature is impossible to regulate because the pursuit of profit _must_ have no limits, or else capitalist game over. The proof is seen today in that it is precisely "minimum wages, labor unions, government mandated safety regulations" and more that are being relentlessly rolled back and eliminated everywhere.

I was with you until here. Capitalism is about finding the smartest, most agreed-upon (if not necessarily most efficient) balance given the environment. A government-induced limitation on use of a resource is largely indistinguishable from a scarcity of it. A minimum wage is to an employer no different than the inablility to entice employees at the lower price. Either way, capitalism reacts accordingly.

I would say what we're seeing now is not a relentless rollback but rather the realization that not every regulation is a good one. One good example is France realizing the 35-hour max workweek wasn't quite the stimulus they hoped it would be. But that's not a universal trend so much as a "boy were we stupid" realization.

Accounting and disclosure regulations are strong and getting stronger. Environmental and economic ones are in more of a shakeout period where we're discovering which ones are beneficial and which ones aren't. In no way though is a return to Upton Sinclair style conditions conceivable. And unions are simply outliving their purpose, not being dismantled from on high.

Originally posted by Odin
Regulated capitalism is becoming unworkable because globalization is allowing companies to move to 3rd world countries if they don't like a countries regulations, forcing a run to the bottom.

All that shows is that it's not much a regulation if it's not universal or there are simple loopholes. Furthermore I'm unconvinced said countries would be better off if companies were discouraged from employing there.

Originally posted by Yosho
Getting away from the political discussion, let me say that I think that state property is a bit too strong in this game.

Well said Yosho. I'd add that Environmentalism is required for scrubbing fallout, right? I agree though, higher upkeep would balance it a bit.

[gilfan]

By regulated capitalsim, all I meant was the worst excesses of capitalism, the ones Marx was afraid of, have been smoothed over by things such as labor unions, child labor laws, minimum wages, anti-trust regulation, etc.

I do agree with a previous poster that labor unions have outlived their usefullness to a large degree. They used to be about fairness, now they are about self-interest. The teacher's union in particular springs to mind. I think teaching is the noblest thing one could choose to do with their life, I used to want to be a teacher when I was in high school, but the effective inability to fire a teacher that's not good at their job is killing the education system. Short of sleeping with a student, you're pretty much invulnerable once you make tenure.

If I thought for one second that the communist ideals of Marx would work in the real world, I'd be the first one signing up to join the party. However, like my sig says, idealism and the real world are seldom compatible.

[cal_01]

Originally posted by Yosho
Getting away from the political discussion, let me say that I think that state property is a bit too strong in this game. Saves a ton of money both on distance cost, AND on the civcs cost, AND brings you more food? All the other civics, it's worth switching back and fourth (especally if you're spiritual), but even for a moderatly sized empire state property is basically always better then either free trade or mercintilism, and the only time enviormentalism is worth considering is if you really desperate to improve your happiness and health.

Perhaps it would be better balanced if State Property had a slightly higher civic upkeep cost or something?

Does trade routes contribute to beakers? If it does, then there's already one advantage that Free Market gives over State Property.

Although I'm a State Property player, I pretty much have to agree that it's too powerful; combined with the Kremlin, you basically out-build the AI several times over.

I'm not sure whether increasing the civic upkeep cost will actually balance State Property; to me, it's readjusting the fixed per-city cost formula to be slightly higher that will ultimately make State Property more fair.

You know a civic is way too powerful if you go from negative 40 gold to about positive 150.

(Speaking of which, Environmentalism still sucks. There's no point in using it even if the player is going for massive GP cities. There's also no way to replant Forests/Jungles either.)

[Amarsir]

Originally posted by gilfan
The teacher's union in particular springs to mind.

Oh my, yes. It was the local teachers' union that opened my eyes to the current role. I was also unhappy after graduating to find that NJ is a "closed shop state", that I can be denied employment for not joining a union. I tend to say nowadays that unions are like guns - I don't want to be involved on either end of one but I do want the option available to me.

Orignally posted by cal_01
(Speaking of which, Environmentalism still sucks. There's no point in using it even if the player is going for massive GP cities. There's also no way to replant Forests/Jungles either.)

Just wanted to correct myself from earlier - scrubbing fallout is tied to the Ecology tech, not the Environmentalism civic.

That suggests an interesting idea though, what if Environmentalism allowed for replanting forests? I believe someone made a mod allowing terraforming but I think permitting it specifically under Environmentalism would be a nice touch. Env does come pretty late though so I wonder if any "allows you to" bonus would pale compared to a "gives you" one.

[potoroo]

Originally posted by Brad Mayer
BTW, capitalism by its nature is impossible to regulate because the pursuit of profit _must_ have no limits, or else capitalist game over. The proof is seen today in that it is precisely "minimum wages, labor unions, government mandated safety regulations" and more that are being relentlessly rolled back and eliminated everywhere.

Meanwhile, back on Earth, there isn't a single fully unregulated capitalist economy on the planet - and nor should there be. Fortunately for humanity, not everyone is convinced greed and selfishness are good or desirable, much less that the pursuit of profit must be allowed regardless of its cost or impact on all the other areas of life and society. But I'll stop now before my disgust gets the better of me.

[johnmcd]

Originally posted by potoroo

Meanwhile, back on Earth, there isn't a single fully unregulated capitalist economy on the planet - and nor should there be. Fortunately for humanity, not everyone is convinced greed and selfishness are good or desirable, much less that the pursuit of profit must be allowed regardless of its cost or impact on all the other areas of life and society. But I'll stop now before my disgust gets the better of me.

Somalia is pretty much an unregulated free market.

[fed1943]

May be I shouldn't but:
1)It is not easy to speak about capitalism v.communism,as theory,because they couln't exist a se;there are also democracy v.tirany;there was never a communist democracy,conversaly the others did exist.
Democracy is very important(I know because I lived half of my life under tirany and other half under democracy).
And world'experience seems to show that capitalism works better than any other economical system.
2)Civ4ne cannot have state propriety in 4000BC;by the end game the player with SP is also running US or orPol.State and nomore Slavery,so paying a civic upkeep of 100gp unless Org.or master in vertical devlopment,so I think it's balanced.
Best regards,

[potoroo]

Originally posted by fed1943
And world'experience seems to show that capitalism works better than any other economical system.

Just as there's more to life than money, so there's more to good government than untrammelled profit. That's why all the world's leading economies (including America) are mixed economies - part private enterprise and part state controlled. The question is where the balance lies, not whether it should be so.

[cal_01]

Originally posted by Amarsir

Oh my, yes. It was the local teachers' union that opened my eyes to the current role. I was also unhappy after graduating to find that NJ is a "closed shop state", that I can be denied employment for not joining a union. I tend to say nowadays that unions are like guns - I don't want to be involved on either end of one but I do want the option available to me.


Just wanted to correct myself from earlier - scrubbing fallout is tied to the Ecology tech, not the Environmentalism civic.

That suggests an interesting idea though, what if Environmentalism allowed for replanting forests? I believe someone made a mod allowing terraforming but I think permitting it specifically under Environmentalism would be a nice touch. Env does come pretty late though so I wonder if any "allows you to" bonus would pale compared to a "gives you" one.

Hmm. That would be a nice idea, too. OTOH, what's to stop players from switching to Env, planting/chopping a bunch of forests like crazy, then switching back?

How about making the Env plantable forest a "special" forest and does not contribute any hammers when chopped?

Or even better: give Environmentalism +1 hammer for forest tiles and +1 food for jungle! Though, again, we'd run into the original debate how Environmentalism sucks again. (However, if it was made in conjunction with the planting suggestion...)

[Older than Dirt]

"State Property" - What a silly name for the result. Have not the developers had any exposure to 20th Century history?