farm improvement

[Nacht]

Suppose you have a city with only hills in its fat cross. Suppose additionally that all those hills have gold or iron resources. Very juicy tiles indeed. But without farms this will be a very unproductive city.
Without farms it means you can get two of those hills in production, if there are any grassland hills among them. Thats makes one poor city site. You would be happy with a fresh water grassland, because every farmed fresh water grassland means an additional hill into use. So in a way that one additional food enables the hammers/gold from those mines. To equate one food with one hammer or commerce is therefore quite silly I think.

Giving farms +1 food would generally mean that you can use all the hammer/gold rich tiles during medieval times. Which is nice if you just want to get your cities up and don't bother anymore, but rather unrealistic.

[gilfan]

That's like saying "what if your city was in the middle of nothing but plains tiles, and every one of them had a cow on it. Aren't you glad you can build pastures?"

Every tile except tundra and floodplains is a 2 point tile base. It just so happens that mines are the one starting improvement that gives you +2 instead of +1.


Grassland.... 2f
Plains.......... 1f 1h
Grass/hills... 1f/1h
Plains/Hills... 2h


Actually, hills aren't even their own terrain type. They are a modifier to the base tile of -1f +1h.


As far as realism goes, +1f with chemistry (fertilizers, etc) and refrigeration hardly seems unrealistic. Much more realistic than say, a head of state who lives for 6000 years.


In any case, it doesn't matter. You don't like the idea, don't make the change, it's that simple. If you're going to post, though, try to contribute something other than telling us we're wrong to want to improve farms somehow.

[Nacht]

Originally posted by gilfan
That's like saying "what if your city was in the middle of nothing but plains tiles, and every one of them had a cow on it. Aren't you glad you can build pastures?"

Such a site would be one hell of a city site. So it hardly compares. My point was that only with farms hills are usefull.

Originally posted by gilfan
Every tile except tundra and floodplains is a 2 point tile base. It just so happens that mines are the one starting improvement that gives you +2 instead of +1.

Cottages are also more than +1 improvements, it only takes time. And thats the point, farms are only +1 because they enable those +2/3/4 tiles. A farm being +2 would enable even more. And in the end the point of your city is producing hammers and commerce, not food.

Originally posted by gilfan
Actually, hills aren't even their own terrain type. They are a modifier to the base tile of -1f +1h.

Now that hardly matters, does it?

Originally posted by gilfan
As far as realism goes, +1f with chemistry (fertilizers, etc) and refrigeration hardly seems unrealistic. Much more realistic than say, a head of state who lives for 6000 years.

Well yes, that why I mostly talk about gameplay repercussions and only mentioned realisticness once in passing.

Originally posted by gilfan
If you're going to post, though, try to contribute something other than telling us we're wrong to want to improve farms somehow.

You not wrong in wanting to improve whatever you want. I just give my opinion. More or less the idea behind boards like this

[Yosho]

I don't think farms are really underpowered as it is. They're not as strong as they were in some older versions of the game, but they're still worth building sometimes, just not all the time. For example, if you have a city surrounded mostly by plains with only 2 grasslands, then you simply need farms.

The question isn't "would I rather have a farm or a windmill?" The question is "would I rather have a farm and a mine, or a windmill and a cottage?" And the answer depends on what you're trying to do with that city.

Once you get biolagy, farms really become strong. +2 food is at least one extra specilist; so it's worth at least +2 production or +3 science/money, whichever you need at the time.

Farms as they are are fine.

[Blake]

In any case, it doesn't matter. You don't like the idea, don't make the change, it's that simple. If you're going to post, though, try to contribute something other than telling us we're wrong to want to improve farms somehow.

People are merely pointing out it IS strategically balanced as it is. You're not wrong for wanting to unbalance your game, just know it is what you're doing.

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Blake

People are merely pointing out it IS strategically balanced as it is. You're not wrong for wanting to unbalance your game, just know it is what you're doing.

When I cottage spam everything except the floodplains around my super-GP city then something is wrong with the improvements. Cottages are worse than SMAC and its forests.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Nacht
Suppose you have a city with only hills in its fat cross. Suppose additionally that all those hills have gold or iron resources. Very juicy tiles indeed. But without farms this will be a very unproductive city.

Wow! Don't I wish I start with one of these...

[DirtyMartini]

I like farms as they are. I see them as a necessary evil -- I build them only when I need them to support other, more productive, tiles. In general, I try to pick city sites where I'll need to use the absolute minimum number of farms. If you beef up farms, a city with only plains in its fat cross becomes a viable city site for a GP pump. This devalues floodplains and resources as well as those few really choice city sites.

My two cents, I know it repeats a lot of other thoughts already posted.

Dirty

[Arrian]

Farms are fine the way they are, IMO. The only change I could see making is the number of worker turns required to build them.

-Arrian

[player1]

Originally posted by Yosho
The question isn't "would I rather have a farm or a windmill?" The question is "would I rather have a farm and a mine, or a windmill and a cottage?" And the answer depends on what you're trying to do with that city.

This is good point.

But on average windmill (only enough to have food, rest can be mines) plus cottages option seems better.

[player1]

The problem I see with Biology upgrade is that at that time you'll already have most of your lands improved, so it would not be feasable to change any of the land to farms.

Now, from historical standpoint, there were much more farms in ancient/medieval eras then today, and it's not well represented in the game, since ealry farm is weak and usually not needed if you placed your city well.

[Nacht]

Originally posted by player1


This is good point.

But on average windmill (only enough to have food, rest can be mines) plus cottages option seems better.

Those windmills don't produce excess food, so no the rest can't be mines, unless you have some farms (or food specials).

[Martin the Dane]

I have noticed that the ai tends to start building cottages and mines, and very few farms in the ancient era. Then when it gets acess to windmills and workshops it starts replacing the old improvements, plastering every flatland with workshops and watermills and hills with windmills, finally at some point in the late game it starts replacing the workshops and watermills and the few remaining towns with farms.

[Nacht]

Originally posted by player1
The problem I see with Biology upgrade is that at that time you'll already have most of your lands improved, so it would not be feasable to change any of the land to farms.

Now, from historical standpoint, there were much more farms in ancient/medieval eras then today, and it's not well represented in the game, since ealry farm is weak and usually not needed if you placed your city well.

Before biology you need two farms to keep a plains/hills mine in production. After you need only one farm. So you can destroy one farm and put a cottage on it.
I don't understand why you think you need more farms when each farm gets more effective.

[fed1943]

I think it is balanced with current farmslain farms feed themselves,2 grass farms feed 1 mine and 1 floodplain farm feeds 1 mine,in the begining gameter,the food problem loses pression with windmills,watermills with state property,biology.
Best regards,