farm improvement

[Urban Ranger]

Re: farm improvement

Originally posted by gilfan
II changed it so that Civil Service raises the farm bonus to +2f total, and Biology raises the bonus to +3f total, bringing farms up to par with all other tile improvements.

My own change is Chemistry adds one - the use of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, etc. Of course, this fits in perfectly with Nimroy's voiceover as well.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Blake
(after all, in modern times it's not wineries getting paved over by farms, there is a definite trend towards cash crop in favor of food).

That's a different issue.

This happens because we can grow food in such abundance that even argi-business demands subsidy. Since you can't make $$$ on food farmers switch to cash crops. But that is not a testimony of how bad farms are. In fact, this point supports the OP that farms in the game are too weak.

To some lesser extent this is a commentary against capitalism. But I digress.

[gilfan]

Senethro: I do pick one coastal city (for harbor health bonus) and give it globe theatre and national epic to have lots of specialists as a Great People factory, but I cap every other city so that it has no specialists.


As for attaching it to chemistry, I agree it makes sense from a logic standpoint, but I went with civil service due to location in the tech tree. I wanted it to be around that time frame, and I thought chemistry was too close to biology, making farms go from weak to max within the span of a couple dozen turns.



[edit] After playtesting it for a while, I've decided I agree that civil service is too early for a bonus. I'm going to try it no bonus from Biology, but with +1 from chemistry and +1 from refridgeration.

[Atomation]

Farms are very useful.

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Atomation
Farms are very useful.

No they're not.

[MasterDave]

In my opinion, an extra unit of food output vastly outweighs the value of a commerce point or hammer precisely because without the food surplus, there is nobody in the city to work those hammer and commerce tiles. Farms may not seem all that exciting or sexy compared to having a fully developed town producing +8 commerce, but in many cases a city will not have the population potential to work those tiles without a few farms in the mix. There have been many games where putting a great Merchant in as a super specialist vastly improved a struggling town's growth rate just with that one extra food unit he produces....

An example of this would be that plains town that is stuck at size 3 but is surrounded by 8 tiles containing unworked cottages and mines that I used to build when I was still learning the game.

The tweak of making a farm produce an extra food with civil service is Waaaaay too powerful. Adding a single commerce to a farm would probably be ok, and would not break the game. This also simulates the use of some of your farmland for "cash crops" as opposed to straight food production.

[Martin the Dane]

Alternatives to altering farms

Since I believe both that farms are to week and one extra food is to much, I just did a test on alternate ways of generating food in cities, one was adding food to the merchant (or any other specialist), this is possible.

Another was to add a modifier to the food production with market, just as it is done with hammer production with forge, this is allso possible.

Finally I added 4 food to market, this allso worked.

So all in all we have at least three alternatives to modifying the farms directly.
Personally I would like to have a building that added a percentage to the total food production in the city. Maybe coulped with a food production bonus to one ore more specialist with a wonder/building/tech.

Hmm. this should be a thread of its own, so I'll write up a proposal and post it seperately.

[gilfan]

My first reaction without trying any of your proposals is they all seem more powerful than adding 1 food to farms. They all have the potential to make it so that your don't need any farms at all, where with my proposal, you have to build farms to get the benefit.

Most mature cities have 4 farms or less. By adding 1 food, that's a net gain of +4 or less. If you gave even just a 10% food modifier from buildings, a 40 food size 20 city would get that +4. I really think a total 10% bonus would have to be the max possible if you go this route.

IMO, we should make farms more valuable, not less necessary.



If you come up with a better method than mine, I'm all ears, but so far I'm very, very happy with Chemistry and Refrigeration being +1f and biology not modifying food at all.

[Lord Avalon]

Originally posted by Blake
(after all, in modern times it's not wineries getting paved over by farms, there is a definite trend towards cash crop in favor of food).

Actually, you have farmland being turned into land for houses or other developments.

[Dr Strangelove]

Farms increase food, which increases the potential population of your cities. Population counts towards your total score.

[Lord Avalon]

I meant IRL, where farmland isn't being used for farms anymore.

[Martin the Dane]

Originally posted by gilfan
My first reaction without trying any of your proposals is they all seem more powerful than adding 1 food to farms. They all have the potential to make it so that your don't need any farms at all, where with my proposal, you have to build farms to get the benefit.

Most mature cities have 4 farms or less. By adding 1 food, that's a net gain of +4 or less. If you gave even just a 10% food modifier from buildings, a 40 food size 20 city would get that +4. I really think a total 10% bonus would have to be the max possible if you go this route.

IMO, we should make farms more valuable, not less necessary.

Hmmm, well I guess you are right. Didn't do the math properly, was thinking: farm+building = +2f*1.25 = +2.5f Doh!!!

What about adding +1f to farms on plains only, and +1g to farms on grassland, I wonder if that's possible.

[player1]

Personally, I think farms would not be over top if they had an extra +1commerce gain (like windmills).

But that should not be available too early, otherwise you would see ealry game farm spam (cotage + 1food).

[player1]

Now, why I consider farms not much useful.

First when I look at the city I count total food output.

Then I add enough windmills if needed to have enough to support full grown 20pop town.

After that if food is still missing I add farms, if not, it's time for cottage spam (and mines if some hill remained without windmills).

So farm for me is only emergency improvement, if I really need it to get full sized city. Usually mills do much better job.

I consider workshop to be same thing really. I usuallty use it only if some city has very low hammer output so it cruical to get a few more.

[Urban Ranger]

I don't think an additional +1 food for farms is game breaking. The developers have done a pretty good job balancing the game, but they hadn't played the game as much as we have, so we see things they didn't.

Furthermore, whatever additional bonuses you give to farms, everybody gets it, not just the human player.