Slower speeds, different tactics?

[Fallenhero]

I usually play at Standard but thought I'd slow it down a bit to help focus my game.

I know that it takes longer to do everything but resolve an attack but does this translate into a different approach?

Does warfare become even more necessary? It might take longer to build an army but once you have it does the relative speed of conquest vs the time needed for wonders or other infrastructure make it a stronger option?

I've started a game but it looks like I'm alone on an island so war will have to wait.

[Quillan]

I don't think warfar is more necessary on Epic and Marathon speeds than on standard, but it does become a little more viable in certain ways. First, the number of hammers needed to build units doesn't increase as much as the tech research and improvement requirements do, so units build comparatively faster. Second, the longer research times means units don't become obsolete as quickly, so you have more time to make use of them.

[Yosho]

It also changes what units you build, at times. For example, in normal games, it seems like millitary escelation goes like this: First both sides build cavelry, then they switch to rifles to counter the cavelry as the rifle tech is found, then they switch to grenadiers to counter the rifles as that tech is found, then they switch to infantry which beats everything. On Marathon, though, you can't just switch to making pure grenadiers, because if you do, there's pleanty of time for the comp to switch back to cavelry and crush them before you get infantry; you have to make more of a mix of units.

[DirtyMartini]

I find warfare (and the game in general) much easier on Epic than Standard (haven't tried Marathon), provided you keep a large enough standing army in the first place.

Each individual unit is more valuable since it becomes obsolete more slowly (you can actually use those musketeers before grenadiers show up). This allows you to pause every once in a while to heal or even think about sending out a fleet of galleons without knowing the cargo will be obsolete by the time it reaches its destination. This is compounded by the fact that humans are much better at using units than the AI, so each unit is more valuable overall, and I'm better at keeping them alive (and promoting them) than the AI is. On standard, the AI is better able to make up for its deficiencies through cash upgrades and just sheer volume of units produced.

The flip side is that if you're not careful, it is easy to fall behind the AI numerically. Since you can't build units as quickly, it's harder to rally from a sneak attack and you can be overwhelmed by the AI, which tends to keep relatively large stacks sitting around.

[johnmcd]

One of the reasons I started playing Marathon was because otherwise I just sat and built and built and built. Now I can build and fight, although the computer does still seem loathe to do much building of its own.

[make]

I to have startet to play marathon.

I dont think wars is more necessary on marathon, but as there has ben said in some way, the human player have more of an advantage over the AI in waging wars. Sometimes the AI's tactics is so bad that it feels like cheating.
Why, Oh, why, does it keep sending raiders into my territory when it knows I have units nearby that can take them out.
So not using this advantage is maybe the issue.

I like wars on marathon. Because of the releative cheap unit VS buildings, I tend to focus a bit to much on war, and as a result often end up with strikes. Its just difficult to resist taking more and more cities once you get youre warmachine rolling.

[Fallenhero]

Well,

My first go has been fairly successful. I'm on my own island so war will have to wait for galleons. I pulled off a CS Sling shot and hopefully as said above my Macemen will still have an edge when they get there but I missed the GLHouse so I'm ticked off at that.

I'm the Tech leader, having met and trader with the rest of the world and when Astro kicks in (12 turns) I should be in great shape.

I'm playing Elizabeth and the money is good but I should focus more on GP production. But with Bureaucracy, flood plain cottages, and gold mines in my capital's fat cross I should be fine.

[The keeper]

In the quicker speeds, it is harder to get a worthwile army built up. If you spend a few turns churing out a bunch of units, by time they get there, they are obsolate.


The flip-side of this (which I havn't seen mentioned really) is that the same thing happens to the computer. If they declare war on you, they cannot have as many units. You rush a couple of units to hold them off, and by that time, the newer unit is available to build. This newer unit should own whatever you are being attacked by.

[Shaka II]

I agree with what's been said. If you're playing as a builder, then marathon makes not much difference, but if you're playing for domination, then it makes quite a bit of difference. I estimate that between normal and epic, an emperor domination win on standard/pangea is completed 100 years earlier, and on marathon, it's completed 100 years earlier than epic, sometimes even in the 16th century. It's the extra turns that the units get, coupled with the units taking fewer turns then science. Taking it to extreme levels, I think domination on a huge map, would be almost impossible on normal speed, but on marathon, it is, because each era allows a suitably long number of turns to make full use of your army.

Having said that, there are certain unusual periods in the game when AI power can go exponential. I'm not sure what causes this exactly, but it happens in mid to late game. I think it has to do with the AI focussing more on farms and growth, and at some point, they switch to cranking out units at an extreme rate, and/or upgrading their already large armies.

If one or two AIs break away like that, it usually takes all the way to the modern era to catch up in strength and take them on. This doesn't seem to happen on normal speed so much, as the units can't be built fast enough, but on marathon the AI can escalate like crazy in mid to late game. So, I try to stay ahead in tech and bribe one AI to fight the leader to weaken their armies and promote discord, while I catch up in strength. The one thing to avoid is the everyone likes everyone situation.

[gdgrimm]

A couple of other points.

Generally speaking, Marathon makes you worry more about about Barbs than faster speeds. There's more turns, so you're more likely to see Barbs in comparison to how long it takes you to build units or research techs.

That generally means having to research (and build) military a little quicker than you might at faster speeds.

Also, since research and build times are longer, it's a little more important to keep up with the military techs.

I think at slower speeds, you can afford the risk of 'back filling' military techs due to the quick research times. It's reasonable (at times) to skip Chemistry and Military Tradition, and just research toward Rifling. Even if it starts to look like an enemy AI is getting ready to attack with Cavalry, you can back fill the prerequisites, research MT, and build a few Cavalry of your own to bide time until you get Rifling.

At the slower periods, you may still be able to back fill the prereqs, but the research time of MT itself is going to be so long that you'll probably have lost quite a few cities before you could even up the military tech.

So even if you're trying a building type strategy, at slower speeds you'll have to be more focused on military techs than at faster speeds.

[Shaka II]

Yup, the barbs are definitely more numerous at marathon. Playing marathon on highlands is a wild and wooly experience, especially a huge map. They're streaming steadily, sort of like at the end of the movie "The One" with Jet Li, when he's on top of the pyramid.

It's also frustrating to watch an AI go over and take out a barb city with two or three fortified archers with one axeman or a chariot. They have such a huge bonus, they just wait and heal if they have to and take another one out until they're all gone. I've stood next to them and watched. I think on a barb fierce map, the AI has a considerable advantage, due to the large bonus.

[johnmcd]

You know, everyone talks a lot about barb problems but I leave my men in the cities, don't go trampling around the countryside and rarely see any, those I do see go away again and don't attack.

[Shaka II]

I think it depends on the map and the playing level. On emperor they do seem to be worse than monarch, but I haven't played monarch since before V1.52, so that's just my hunch. Where you'll really see barbs is on a marathon map with a lot of space for each civ, such as a large or huge map with the standard number of civs. There's a long time before cultural borders touch, and barbs are everywhere. I put some archers on forested hills, replacing them with axemen when I get my metal hooked up. That pretty much keeps them back, but up until then, it can be touch and go.

To get a feel for it, try a standard highlands map with 7 civs or a standard pangea map with only 4 civs instead of 7. I'm not sure if there is something about highlands that makes them worse, e.g., the hills making shadows. If you want a super intense barb experience try a huge highlands map standard settings, emperor, or a standard highlands map with 4 civs, and watch them come streaming at you almost faster than you can build units. I tried it once and had 30 barb kills by the time I was trying to settle my 3rd city, but they overran my 2nd city, I didn't have enough defenders (too many Quechua, not enough archers) when a barb axemen stack came.

I think the barb generation rate is a function of game speed, being proportional to the number of moves, unlike the time it takes to build units, which is longer on marathon (even though the ratio of unit build time to research time is higher), making marathon more barb intense. On a standard pangea with 7 civs, they are quite manageable, but still you have to go for archery or axemen to defend quickly or have water as a backdrop. It sounds like your game was on continents, a lot of water, perhaps?

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Shaka II
It's also frustrating to watch an AI go over and take out a barb city with two or three fortified archers with one axeman or a chariot. They have such a huge bonus, they just wait and heal if they have to and take another one out until they're all gone. I've stood next to them and watched. I think on a barb fierce map, the AI has a considerable advantage, due to the large bonus.

Tell me about it. I recently saw Peter go for a barb city near to me with two chariots and an archer. I sent two axemen to watch with the tacit objective that they would perhaps take the city when Peter failed.

In the first attack Peter only used one chariot which managed to kill one defender. In the next turn his second chariot takes out a second defender.

This is where I think it's time to move in with my Axeman (Combat I + Cover). Should be simple you say. Ha!! The archers cut up my elite axemen as if they were flies suffering about 25% damaged. Fortunately my second unit of Axemen (Combat I + Melee) could take the city. The exercise was repeated with a second nearby barb city will similar results - except I didn't lose an axeman this time.

Something tells me that I don't fully understand the combat algorithm here.

Combat is certainly a bigger feature in the lower speeds so I guess that necessitates a play to adjust their style accordingly. Not only are the units relatively cheaper but they also move faster (relative to the game speed).

Any temporary tech/resource advantage will therefore last longer for either player or AI so the window of opportunity to exploit it is greater

[chiqss]

Originally posted by Shaka II
I think domination on a huge map, would be almost impossible on normal speed, but on marathon, it is, because each era allows a suitably long number of turns to make full use of your army.

According to my last 2 domination victories on a huge map on marathons ( emperor ) You are right , I would even say that the game length ( and maybe difficulty ) makes you go for an early domination victory . If you are wealthy enough , the more turns the more money you have to upgrade units. If you can research chemistry before the others ( which can be made quite easily ) then you can upgrade your III raider maceman to devastating III raider grenadier that allow you to take any city you want as they are usually defended by Longbowmen at this time. this advantage can last for 50-80 turns before the AI gets rifle

As said before this allows you to make a full use of your amies and reach a domination victory using the same tactic with infantry