Theocracy vs Organized Religion vs Pacifism

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I am chasing the cultural wins, and well I am kind of stuck into Pacifism until the end of the game. It's org rel first and after Philo it's pacifism... It's great, lots more of great people and arguably a very strong civic if used wisely.

[Arrian]

I use Pacifism a LOT. Probably more than I should. Still, it's a powerful civic, IMO.

I tend to forget about Org. Rel... especially given the path I often take through the tech tree. It's strong, though, especially for Organized civs. Which of course means that I totally ignored it in my current game (playing Japan!). I ran Pacifism right up until I had Liberalism.

Theocracy... well, I much prefer Bureacracy to Vassalage, so if I want the extra 2XP, that's where I'm gonna get it from.

-Arrian

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Blake
Free Speech + Slavery = You can whine about it all you want, but we're still going to beat you.

Slavery and U.Suffrage. Even give them the vote and then beat them

[Yosho]

I usually run org religion, all the way. If I'm spiritual, and something goes terribly wrong and I suddenly have to switch all my cities over to making units, I may run theocracy for a bit, but I usually switch back as soon as possible.

The benifits from org religion just stack up very quickly. If you get the library built 4 turns sooner, that means you get 4 extra turns of the library running (which probably means 20 extra research points) and 4 turns worth of hammer production as well, which might be another millitary unit or part of your next building. The way the game is set up, with no maint. costs for buildings and flexable technology, there are always more buildings you want then you have time to make. I've been running org religion basically the whole game, unless I need to switch to free religion late for diplomatic reasons.

[more_cowbell]

Historically, the United States had free speech and slavery until after the Civil War. The free speech just didn't apply to the slaves themselves. So, some of these civic combos aren't as far out as one might think.

[Arrian]

Universal Suffrage could be said to apply to all citizens. A slave isn't a citizen.

But anyway, I've really gotta try to force myself to use Org. Rel. more often. I like my great people, though...

-Arrian

p.s. I got a fever! And the only prescription is... MORE COWBELL!

[Shaka II]

Build the Pyramids and have police state for +25% production of military units, 25% less war weariness. Switching to Theocracy for 2XP seems like a tradeoff against organized religion which is great (like Blake says) for putting courthouses, theaters, and other improvements into newly captured cities. That or have slavery and pop rush them in, which I tend to agree may be the best for the war. The typical problem is that enemy cultural borders wrap around a captured city, giving it no tiles to support the population. If you can't pop rush a theater in there to expand the borders quickly, you'll starve it right down. And building a theater with +1 hammer takes forever. Since the pop is going to take a hit anyway, the best use for them is to make a theater to quickly expand borders and maybe a courthouse.

What I'd like to know is if there are any conflicts with having certain combinations of civics or under certain conditions such as having a war while running pacifism, etc. Are there civic conflicts, or is it just that having a large army costs a lot more under pacifism?

I'm very tempted to switch to pacifism in the present game as Mao, since I've built three early wonders (Great Library (in capital), and Pyramids and Hanging Gardens in my "engineer" city). So I'm cranking out great engineers and great scientists and think another 100% might be the ticket. OTOH, I'm at that critical period with 4 cities, and have to expand my military to go out and conquer Rome and beyond. It's awfully tempting to be a pure builder for once, but my CKN's might get rather upset.

[platypotamus]

Re: Don't underestimate Pacifism. Good for war

Originally posted by couerdelion


GP points are still a huge value with 10+ cities. Since I tend to value my GPs are around 2000 gold in Mediaeval/Renaissance then even if you’re running with three specialists in your whole empire, the +100% bonus is going to be worth 9 GPP so of the order of between 9 and 45 gold/turn. This is usually bigger than the gains you’ll be making on other civics

Can you explain that math to me couerdelion? I'm not sure where you're getting the 9-45 gpt range? I'm figuring it has to be a result of how many GPPs = a GP, but you've lost me a bit in the logic there.

If 100 GPP = 1 GP, then 9 GPP = 12 turns to GP
2000/12 = 199 gpt.
If 500 GPP = 1 GP, then 9 GPP = 56 turns to GP
2000/56 = 37.something gpt...


or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

[couerdelion]

Re: Re: Don't underestimate Pacifism. Good for war

Originally posted by platypotamus


Can you explain that math to me couerdelion? I'm not sure where you're getting the 9-45 gpt range? I'm figuring it has to be a result of how many GPPs = a GP, but you've lost me a bit in the logic there.

If 100 GPP = 1 GP, then 9 GPP = 12 turns to GP
2000/12 = 199 gpt.
If 500 GPP = 1 GP, then 9 GPP = 56 turns to GP
2000/56 = 37.something gpt...


or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Basically you've got it right but I think I may have it wrong.

If 200*GPP = GP and GP = 2000g(old) then

GPP = 10g -> 9 GPP/turn = 90g/turn

For the 9g/turn you require GPP = 1g or 2000*GPP = GP

---------------------------------

Actually this is all complete rubbish. Well a little rubbish since the generation of a GP reduce the future value of GPP. Funny how I manage to pick a line of reasoning that supports the case I want to make but used another to rubbish the Parthenon.

The basic point is that doubling the GPPs does not double the number of GPs so it stands to reason that the value of +100% GPs is not double the value of existing GPP.

In fact, it works out at around 40%-55% of the values above but this is still very high considering the value attributed to those early GPPs.

I would perhaps consider using Org Rel for some basic early stage building but would hope to rely on forests or slavery for the balance of production to get cities moving. After that I really ought to be rolling with a GP generating and the Pacifism bonus becomes important unless I am running a Philosophic Leader.

[Brael]

Didn't read this entire thread so it's quite possible I missed it but where did the 10 gold/point come from? Also, wouldn't the value vary?

Great Engineer - Tough to (easily) put a price on a specific wonder, plus it would change depending on what you want to rush.
Great Scientist - Easy to calculate the extra beakers/turn from an Academy, then convert that to gold.
Great Merchant - Easy to calculate since it gives you gold (though the benefit of being able to use him as a scout in lands you don't have Open Borders with is much tougher to calculate).
Great Prophet - Easy to calculate shrine income (tougher to calculate when you bring in hammer cost to spread religion into the equation).
Great Artist - Tough to calculate a culture bombs economic gain for you.

Then of course theres tech discoveries which are easy to figure out since its virtually the same thing as finding the cost of the Academy.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Brael
Didn't read this entire thread so it's quite possible I missed it but where did the 10 gold/point come from? Also, wouldn't the value vary?

The value would definitely vary but the figure of 2000g is a rough “rule of thumb” for any old GP. As a minimum figure I will consider the research points that they might provide towards a new tech since this is more of less “money in the bank”. The other obvious “money in the bank” generator is your Great Merchants Trade Mission which may take several turns to emerge but really does appear as cash on the nail. I’ve seen lots of 2000g+ numbers here so felt my rule of thumb to be sound enough.

The Artist gets 4000 culture immediately and using a straight comparison of the output from an artist specialist and a merchant specialist I can get a crude exchange rate of 2c=1g. Simple arithmetic then gives the 4000 culture boost a “value” of 2000g.

Somewhat strangely, I might have seen the same order of magnitude for both Standard and Epic speeds which is clearly not right and switches the balance in favour of settling GPs rather than using them for an immediate boost. Having said that it may just be that my experience on Epic speed is too limited to draw this conclusion.

However you look at it, the alternative uses of the GP will only be taken if it is felt that they have a greater value than the alternatives. Either way, 2000g seems a reasonable value.

p.s. Both Academy and Shrine income have to take account of the way these will increase. A good deal of the Shrine value comes from its initial production rather than from any separate missionary or building investment. Likewise, Academy science will benefit from city growth and growing cottages

[joncnunn]

Also just as strategicly stupid as it is conceptually.

U Suffrage pairs much better with Emmancipation that increases the rate at which cottages get to towns for the extra hammer.

While Slavery seems to pair well with the govt that allows military units to act as police.

Originally posted by couerdelion

Slavery and U.Suffrage. Even give them the vote and then beat them

[Brizey]

On thing I have done in the past is sort of a "Promotion slingshot". Probably only advisable with a spiritual civ.

Bascially, I pre-build units in maybe five to ten cities. I usually do a siege weapon and my main offensive unit in each. I build them until they only need one more turn. So i then have two units that are one turn away from building in my queue in as many cities as possible. I then switch to Theocracy (and Vassalage?), build all the units, then switch back to another civic immediatley.

Pow. Ten to twenty double promoted units with minimal disruption to other empire needs.

I have never tried it, but this could be especially sneaky in MP.

[gentle]

nice idea but there is a 5-turn delay, I think, after you changed civics before you can change again.
So every city should have 5 prebuilt units queued that need 1 turn.
SPI doesnt prevent this delay *sigh* it just skips the anarchy.

[Blake]

It's still very clever, because you can store up nearly complete units then pop them out. For example you could prebuild a maceman and catapult in every city, so yuo actually get 2 units built from every city during the high-exp civics. This would be especially good on the slower game speeds.