Using Leader Traits 3 - Tokugawa (Agg/Org)

[JackRudd]

Race to Civil Service and Machinery.

Build lots of Samurai.

Hack everyone to pieces.

[couerdelion]

Re: Using Leader Traits 3 - Tokugawa (Agg/Org)

Originally posted by JackRudd
Race to Civil Service and Machinery.

Build lots of Samurai.

Hack everyone to pieces.

Very clear and succinct.

I’m just wondering if you could help us a little and tell us the quickest way to do this. Something tells me that Tokugawa is ideal for an axeman rush.

Also, what sort of diplomatic stance should I take with Tokugawa. Is it a good idea to make friends with other aggressive leaders (except the Mongols)?

With regard to trading, to be historically accurate I would also want to close my borders to any foreigner and should adopt mercantilism as soon as I get it. I should also declare war on China the instant that I find them and develop my own religion.

[JackRudd]

Hmmm. Aggressive isn't really a trait that fits in with my normal styles of play, but I'll see what I can think of...

Yeah, Axeman rush can't be bad. Axemen with a free Combat I promotion are nice.

Developing your own religion is usually a good idea in this game, and I can't see why Toku would be an exception. Possible ideas: Confucianism (you'll have to research Code Of Laws anyway to get to your UU) or Christianity (Theocracy is very nice for Aggressive leaders).

[UnOrthOdOx]

Re: Re: Using Leader Traits 3 - Tokugawa (Agg/Org)

Originally posted by couerdelion
Very clear and succinct.

I’m just wondering if you could help us a little and tell us the quickest way to do this. Something tells me that Tokugawa is ideal for an axeman rush.

As with most things, "it depends".

With the proper starting locale, you should aim for a CS slingshot. Outlined somewhere, I'll try to link later. Ah, linky: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showt...hreadid=147474

After the slingshot grab machinery ASAP.

If your start however, favors horizontal growth, an axeman rush is indeed ideal while you work towards CS and Machinery. In this case I would suggest grabbing metal casting with the Oracle and use it to fuel a large production bonus. In this instance also, if my nearest neighbor is spiritual, I like to let them found the religion for me.

[The keeper]

Tokugawa:

The aggressive trait lends itself toward early conquest. This can be done with axes/swords. This can be done with cats and elephants. This can be done with Samari and knights. Once you get to the age of cavalry, the aggressive trait tends to be less influencial because horses and armors dont recieve the bonus with aggressive.

If going for an aggressive type win, to fully maximize both traits, build the pyramid. You can switch to police state which is an expensive civic - but it helps with military production. The orginized trait keeps the cost of civics down. So you will be able to pump out combat 1 +another promotion (barracks) 25% faster with low civic cost.

Orginized keeps civic costs down - and military civics are generally more expensive than peaceful civics. Tokugawa's traits just BEG for conquest.

[CerberusIV]

Samurai are a nice UU - if you get to use them.

I've just finished a game at Prince, standard map, continents, epic speed. I started on one continent along with Peter's Russians and the other 5 civs on a continent I couldn't reach without Optics.

The aggressive trait helped early on. I built 4 cities, the last one for a copper mine, with barracks in 3 and a force of 5 or 6 Combat 1, City Raider 1 axemen backed by 3 or 4 horse archers. That was enough to take Peter's 4 cities (he had axes and swords but no horses).

The organised trait meant that doubling my number of cities didn't wreck my economy and I was able to add 3 more cities to fill the continent after getting the FP up.

I replaced or upgraded almost all my military to Samurai when I had spare cash or cities with no buildings to build but was a bit slow upgrading again to riflemen. That cost me after Optics when Washington asked for tribute and I refused. I started the upgrades/replacements and had done about half when his invasion fleet (one galleon carrying two riflemen and a cannon and a couple of frigates arrived). I wiped them out at the cost of two knights and a couple of fishing boats pillaged but Samurai were obsolete before I got a chance to use them.

Tokugawa is fairly straightforward. Aggressive helps strengthen your military for the early land grab and Organised lets you afford enough cities as a result to be bigger than the next civ. Size matters so it should then be up to you how you win the game after that point.

[PaganPaulwhisky]

CS slingshot and pyramids for Tokugawa??? Are you guys crazy? It appears that slingshots are now the default strategy for everybody.

If your starting location is ideal for a CS slingshot then it is most likey ideal for kicking your neighbors a**. This guy is a war machine. Go knock some heads (the sooner the better). Let the comp build wonders and found religions then take them.

[Blake]

Lets take stock of why Tokugawa is awesome:

1) Traits.
Aggressive makes it a lot easier to conquer. There are two main reasons for this, firstly the free combat 1, just +10% is a fairly big deal, probably increasing the odds of winning (or reducing the odds of losing) by about 20%. Next is being able to take Shock at lvl2, and Formation at lvl3. This makes your Axemen much more savage at killing melee, and your spearmen much better against horses and elephants. You'll lose them about 50% less often.
Organized makes it a lot easier to make conquered territory profitable as well as making it cheap to run Vassalage and Organized Religion, these are both ideal civics for a warmonger. Org.Rel allows you to keep moving in your state religion, providing the +1 culture and +25% build bonus, then with the help of that bonus and the +100%, poprush in those courthouses. So missionary + courthouse and a captured city is ready to join the Japanese zerg factory (or start paying for it). The use of Vassalage is obvious, exp and paying for your army. With a large empire you get a lot of free units.

2) Starting Techs:
Tokugawa has arguably the best starting techs of any leader, except for religious purposes (which goes to India or Spain). The Wheel + Fishing means you can research Pottery right away and spam cottages around the capital. Cottages means research and having power over your own destiny.
(Hatty and the French can also do pottery first, they are agriculture/wheel).

3) Samuari. The Samuari is unique. It is the only upgraded city buster to belong to an Aggressive leader. The city buster line is Axe, Sword, Mace, Grenade, Riflemen and all siege. Arguably Calvary.
But the special thing about the Samuari, not only is it a unique unit of a unit designed to take cities, it gets the aggressive bonus too! The jaguar is a downgraded city buster, while the Keshik doesn't even get the aggressive bonus. All other aggressive UU's are of defensive or utility units (ie Phalnax, Musketeer etc). The upgrades may or may not make them good for taking cities, but one thing for sure: they will not be as good at taking cities as Samuari! Nothing is as good at taking cities as Samuari. The 2 First Strikes is also a LARGE bonus, it's about the most hefty UU bonus out there, on par with the strength boost of Praets and Cossacks. But I'd say the 2 FS are even better, they result in the Samuari winning flawlessly more often, meaning less downtime, more promotions, more momentum.
The next best thing about Samuari is timing, you have just enough time for an early war to acquire the Iron you need, while still arriving early enough to make a big impact.

Put it all together, and you get a leader with a strong start, who can achieve great momentum in conquest thanks to a strong UU and great tools for economic management.

The strategy I personally suggest for Tokugawa:
Start out researching pottery. Spam some cottages.
After Pottery, research to Alphabet. Trade Alphabet for Mathematics and Iron Working. (if at higher difficulties)
Then research to Construction.
Do I have to say what you do at construction? Well in case I do: Spam catapults!
Once you've finished your meal of the nearest neighbour, focus on researching to get Fuedalism, Civil Service and Machinery ASAP. Then conquer the known world with the Vassalage fueled Samuari (and catapults, but only use them to blast down defenses).
Beeline to Chemistry and upgrade Raider 3 Samuari to Grenades.
Beeline to Communism and run State Property.
Everything else should pretty much be dead by now.

[Tau Ceti]

Originally posted by Blake
Tokugawa has arguably the best starting techs of any leader

I am not entirely convinced. In the extreme early game, commerce is the least valuable of the three factors of production, except if you are trying to grab one of the early religions. While cottages on flood plains are obviously great, cottages on grassland rivers are acceptable but hardly amazing and cottages on straight grassland are downright weak, being next to nothing compared with the commerce from the palace.

By far the most productive squares to work are the specials, and the best of these tend to be animal resources (such as the mighty cow). Tokugawa starts without any of the prerequisites for Animal Husbandry. He is not alone in this fate, however, all the others in the same situation start with either Mining or Mysticism. Tokugawa has the single combination of starting techs that is two away from all of Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry and early religions. This seems to make his starting techs the weakest of all, in my opinion. I am not sure how a shot at early Pottery makes up for this.

Cottages are fine as the third and fourth worked squares, but not as the first and second.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by Tau Ceti

I am not entirely convinced. In the extreme early game, commerce is the least valuable of the three factors of production, except if you are trying to grab one of the early religions. While cottages on flood plains are obviously great, cottages on grassland rivers are acceptable but hardly amazing and cottages on straight grassland are downright weak, being next to nothing compared with the commerce from the palace.

By far the most productive squares to work are the specials, and the best of these tend to be animal resources (such as the mighty cow). Tokugawa starts without any of the prerequisites for Animal Husbandry. He is not alone in this fate, however, all the others in the same situation start with either Mining or Mysticism. Tokugawa has the single combination of starting techs that is two away from all of Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry and early religions. This seems to make his starting techs the weakest of all, in my opinion. I am not sure how a shot at early Pottery makes up for this.

Cottages are fine as the third and fourth worked squares, but not as the first and second.

With Toku, you're hoping for a coastal start and a seafood special (or two) for vertical growth. You'll need cottages to support your horizontal expansion. Production can be accelarated by pop'n'chop once Bronze is in hand.

[Blake]

I am not entirely convinced. In the extreme early game, commerce is the least valuable of the three factors of production, except if you are trying to grab one of the early religions. While cottages on flood plains are obviously great, cottages on grassland rivers are acceptable but hardly amazing and cottages on straight grassland are downright weak, being next to nothing compared with the commerce from the palace.

By far the most productive squares to work are the specials, and the best of these tend to be animal resources (such as the mighty cow). Tokugawa starts without any of the prerequisites for Animal Husbandry. He is not alone in this fate, however, all the others in the same situation start with either Mining or Mysticism. Tokugawa has the single combination of starting techs that is two away from all of Bronze Working, Animal Husbandry and early religions. This seems to make his starting techs the weakest of all, in my opinion. I am not sure how a shot at early Pottery makes up for this.

Cottages are fine as the third and fourth worked squares, but not as the first and second.

Commerce is suprisingly valuable and cottages produce a lot of it. Just 2 towns will nearly double your research rate. What I usually do is have the capital work any specials + all the cottages it can, and all other cities go with heavier hammers. Getting the cottages up fast ASAP works well, because relatively speaking, they upgrade to towns very quickly in the early game.

And the idea of the fast cottages is to give very fasy, very directed research. Get catapults and catch your neighbours with their pants down, catapults mean fewer losses and better conservation of hammers (trained units tend to stay alive rather than be diposable). Production and expansion doesn't actually matter much because the catapults are chopped (no real need for hammers) and you take all the cities you need, cities that have been developed for you. (I actually don't tend to chop anything other than the catapults and will only expand once or twice...)


It works great for me.

Also I'll work cottages with the first workers, especially with floodplains or no river at all. I'll delay hooking up certain resources in favor of cottages. For example: Cows. It requires 2 techs to get to Animal Husbandary. I'd rather start working cottages and speed the progress to AH.

[Tau Ceti]

Originally posted by Swiss Pauli
With Toku, you're hoping for a coastal start and a seafood special (or two) for vertical growth. You'll need cottages to support your horizontal expansion. Production can be accelarated by pop'n'chop once Bronze is in hand.

Seafood specials are of course great with fishing. But you can't really rely on it; while coastal starts are not that rare, coastal starts with seafood are (no more than one in five starts in my experience). So Fishing is only a good/useful starting tech if you are lucky.

And yes, you will need cottages. I just question the utility of making them your first improvements. See my next reply to Blake for more.

Production can be accelerated by chopping, but not replaced. There is a tendency in the posts here for people to suggest chopping everything. Apparently you are supposed to chop out a settler, a second worker, Stonehenge, the Oracle, a Library and 5 or 6 Axemen. There just are not that many forests; hammer production is still necessary.

[Tau Ceti]

Blake, I don't think we really disagree so much. It may be a case of small nitpicking, or just of timing. You say

What I usually do is have the capital work any specials + all the cottages it can

which is usually the same as I would do (though I would work at least one mine if none of the specials give significant hammers). However, I contend that the specials are more productive than the cottages, and therefore those should be your first priority. This is because in the extreme early game, it is more important to save one turn in getting your settler, worker or wonder out than it is to shave one turn off the research time for any given tech, except the early religions, which Tokugawa is in any case not in a position to grab.

Thus I will want the techs needed to improve the resources around my capital. Tokugawa starts without the ability to improve any, in addition to being far away from Bronze Working. In the worst case start (inland lake with only animal resources) this leaves him with very little to do.

Pottery for cottages is a necessity for all civs sooner or later. However, I would practically always be working the specials first. This means that Pottery can wait until my capital is approaching size 3 or so, as I would not be working any cottages before then (unless I have flood plains). There are other techs I will want first, and Tokugawa is in the worst possible position to get those techs.

That is why I protest your statement that Tokugawa's starting techs are the best of any leader's.

I simply don't value cottages as the first worked squares, and would therefore not go for pottery first. I am not completely sure what your thoughts are on that, so a few questions might clear it up:

1) As one of your first, say, two squares, would you work a 2/0/1 (grassland on river) in preference to a 2/1/0 (grassland forest)?
2) Would you work a river cottage (2/0/2) in preference to an improved animal, agricultural or mineral resource?
3) Would you always go for Pottery first, also with France and Egypt?

[Blake]

1) As one of your first, say, two squares, would you work a 2/0/1 (grassland on river) in preference to a 2/1/0 (grassland forest)?
2) Would you work a river cottage (2/0/2) in preference to an improved animal, agricultural or mineral resource?
3) Would you always go for Pottery first, also with France and Egypt?

1) Not usually as Japan as they can't found religion nor benefit (much) from stonehenge, but I'll certainly work a grassland cottage in favor of grassland forest.
2) Trick question. I may work a cottage because I don't want to research an entire tech (or two!) to improve one tile. A town ends up better than most resources, and with pottery I can immediately improve 3 or 4 tiles to be worked, while with any other tech it'll only be 1 or 2 workable tiles.
3) Maybe.

To elaborate on 3, it depends partly on the resources I see. For example if I get say 3 floodplains, then I don't really care what the resources are, I'm going to put cottages on those floodplains ASAP. Likewise if I get a bare patch of grassland with prehaps one difficult to work resource (ie requires 2 techs) I'll probably go with cottages first, because the start has such little commerce the cottages become kind of essential. It does depend on the resources though, freshwater grains (especially not rice) are fairly compelling, and obviously with Eygpt there is the War Chariot factor, picking up AH ASAP is a good idea. As Japan I don't care for horses because I attack with pults.
I have a policy against playing France because they are industrious, but what this means is they kind of need hammers to be multiplied for wonder building. Tokugawa has no such requirement, he can afford to go with 100% commerce and still be making use of his traits. And the reason to go with the 100% commerce is to get alphabet and construction ASAP, at that point the game becomes taking what is needed from the AI's. Tokugawa is a taker, not a builder. (I'm not sure what Napoleon is supposed to be, to be honest)

That is why I protest your statement that Tokugawa's starting techs are the best of any leader's.

Prehaps I mean he enjoys great trait : techs integration, equal to the Indians. He can get away with a very tight beeline, Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet -> Mathematics (trade), Masonary (trade) -> Construction. Usually with a diversion to bronze working altough it can be traded for in a pinch.

[Swiss Pauli]

Originally posted by Tau Ceti

Production can be accelerated by chopping, but not replaced. There is a tendency in the posts here for people to suggest chopping everything. Apparently you are supposed to chop out a settler, a second worker, Stonehenge, the Oracle, a Library and 5 or 6 Axemen. There just are not that many forests; hammer production is still necessary.

Don't forget about the pop. At Monarch, you can't support so much population early, so slave-rushing fills in too. That's not to say hammers are ignored - I'll leave a wooded hill and chop flatlands, if possible.

On my current game with Toku I had coastal start with 3 FP, cows, but no seafood special. And gold. So this was ideal for cottages first to pull an accelerated CS Sling. I got lucky by getting mining from a hut, but had to wait til iron before getting my second city as copper was nowhere to be seen.

The cash from cottaged FPs and the mine meant I got the Oracle (chopped) by 1000BC-ish, having got CoL a turn earlier, and then poprushed my settler once iron appeared. I had 6 forest within Kyoto's fat cross, IIRC, and a few more just outside. At 1300AD, I still have 2 forests left in Kyoto.

I only settled one more city (coastal, of course) and have taken 7: Samurai simply rock! These yielded the pyramids, parthenon, nativity, taoist holy city, a load of cash and some pop for whipping.

I made it first to Liberalism and Economics and will be first to cavalry and early enough to chemistry to upgrade those Samurai for more action.

This is the beauty of Toku's starting techs - they complement superbly an aggressive strategy that his leader traits and UU suggest. I can only surmize that the AI plays him badly on purpose in order to make him look bad!