The Devel's Workshop 1a - Beyond the Veil (After the Slingshot)

[Hermann the Lombard]

68 hammers is a bunch, but let's see...from the image I was working a base of 21 hammers, forge, bureaucracy, and I had *just* finished an Observatory. Maybe I was also in a Golden Age? I'm too lazy to go back and look again, after just doing so to get the other numbers.

[smacfan]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard


So I was unable to re-assign any of Washington's 4 Specialists, and there don't seem to be any buildings that force specialists (though I do have one free specialist). Here's a save from 2 turns earlier, but Washington still has the same problem.

Also at 1250 AD I was asking for advice on "Choice of Civics" so if anyone has an opinion, please speak up!

By dbl-clicking the Clam tile (the one that has 4f2g) I was able to remove the Artist. Then clicking the "minus" button on the Scientist specialists, they became citizens and I was able to assign them to work tiles, leaving 1 free Engineer specialist:

edit: I tried to attach a screenshot here, but I seem to have lost the knowledge of how to do that...

WRT the civics question, I agree with your assessment to wait the 3T of anarchy until peace following the current war.

Regards,

smacfan

[Hermann the Lombard]

That's interesting! Without "clamming up" none of the minus buttons did anything. In the save I posted I think the Artist was listed as the freebie. Anybody know why this might happen?

Meanwhile...did anybody notice that I never built the Forbidden Palace? Versailles yes, FP no. This was not a strategic decision, but it was a bit of an ongoing tactical decision, meaning that each time I thought about building it I had something I wanted to do more.

When and where would YOU have built it? If I had built it I would probably have put it in Madrid or Cordoba. [Remember that Seattle had Versailles.]

[cynyck]

So I was unable to re-assign any of Washington's 4 Specialists, and there don't seem to be any buildings that force specialists (though I do have one free specialist). Here's a save from 2 turns earlier, but Washington still has the same problem.

I have had this problem before. When it happens, I have to click on the minus sign next to the specialist I want to remove, and then click the plus sign next to the citizen specialist. This decreases one specialist I wanted to remove and increases one citizen specialist. The specialist does not disappear after clicking the minus sign, it only disappears after I then click the plus sign next to the citizen specialist.

I can then either click a plus sign next to a different specialist and re-assign the citizen specialist, or click the minus sign next to the citizen specialist and put a citizen back to working a square in the fat cross.

[smacfan]

Originally posted by cynyck


I have had this problem before. When it happens, I have to click on the minus sign next to the specialist I want to remove, and then click the plus sign next to the citizen specialist. This decreases one specialist I wanted to remove and increases one citizen specialist. The specialist does not disappear after clicking the minus sign, it only disappears after I then click the plus sign next to the citizen specialist.

I can then either click a plus sign next to a different specialist and re-assign the citizen specialist, or click the minus sign next to the citizen specialist and put a citizen back to working a square in the fat cross.

Confirmed. Washington has this problem in Hermann's save. I clicked minus on the Artist and then plus on the citizen specialist, and then I could assign the citizen to work a tile. The citizen specialist did not appear until I clicked plus, just as you say.

Interesting little bug.

Hermann, I don't know why it happens, but I also noticed that the Artist was listed as the freebie in your save game. After assigning the citizen who was an artist, I think one of the Scientists was listed as the freebie. I guess the "freebie" can move around...

I could also move the freebie around after all citizens were assigned to tiles. I guess that's normal.

Peter

[Verrucosus]

Phew, this was an exhausting read. Thank you again for taking the time to make such detailed notes and post them. I'm still a bit overwhelmed so I have just a question and a more general comment.

Early on, you made a conscious decision not to go immediately for the copper source. Would you have done the same if you had not known about the iron hidden in the desert east of Rome and, if so, why was it less urgent to you?

More generally, when reading these reports (the same happened a few weeks ago when I read Vel's) there comes a moment (perhaps during or after the first major war) when the game seems to become too complex to be analysed in as much detail as before. You can notice this when your "shopping lists" that were quite specific in the early days start to include items like "becoming #1 in GNP, population and military" (Vel) or "conquer Spain, America & India" (Hermann). I wonder if that is just because the subject matter of the workshop had been covered at that point (and the rest of the game is reported just for the sake of completeness) or because you start to play more intuitively once your civilization has earned its place on the world stage.

Please do not take this comment as a request for an even more detailed report. (I've barely recovered from this one.) It's just that I've noticed in my own games that I begin by playing very analytically, agonising even over minor decisions because they can have long-reaching effects. Eventually, as my empire grows ever more complex, my way of thinking about the game changes. I don't stop thinking, but I get immersed in the flow of the game, so I do not rationalise my decisions as much as I do during the early stages. I have also noted that forum discussions are much more specific or even obsessive (e.g. the never-ending "What to build first"-Debate) with regard to the earlier parts of the game. Is that because even those players with a more scientific approach play less analytically as the game continues or because the analysis gets too complex to talk about?

[fed1943]

I think there are two reasons:
The analysis gets too complex to talk(and to think)about.
Also,it is becoming less important(your fate is already set).
Best regards,

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Verrucosus
Phew, this was an exhausting read.

You should try writing it.

Early on, you made a conscious decision not to go immediately for the copper source. Would you have done the same if you had not known about the iron hidden in the desert east of Rome and, if so, why was it less urgent to you?

The basic decision was to go for relatively tight spacing of my first two cities relying on the third city to bring in the copper, and as it happened to rely on the border bump of the third city to bring in the copper. Bronze Working was more important to me than actually having the bronze (or at least, having it in military quantities). No, the foreknowledge of the iron deposit didn't affect my actions (though looking back I see that the iron mine was ready *before* the copper mine).

I have also noted that forum discussions are much more specific or even obsessive (e.g. the never-ending "What to build first"-Debate) with regard to the earlier parts of the game. Is that because even those players with a more scientific approach play less analytically as the game continues or because the analysis gets too complex to talk about?

I guess there are multiple factors at work. The discussion of the early game is more "pure" as there are fewer elements to consider. Likewise early goals may be relatively simpler. As the game goes on the "it depends" factor gets larger and larger. As you say, the complexity of the analysis plays a big role both in the accounts and in the getting into the flow of the game.

There's a duality in how my described goals changed: some goals get more strategic (conquer America) and some get more tactical (pillage America's only iron mine); the intermediate "operational" level decreased in description if not in importance. In terms of the account of the game, I fear I got so absorbed in who built what and when that I didn't record as much about goals and plans how to reach them.

There is a fatigue factor too: it's very easy to report that Antium built a tank, it's not as easy to report that I had Antium build a tank instead of a Jail because I knew that the game wouldn't last long enough for War Weariness to become crippling. I did note that I built certain things (probably including a Jail in Antium, I'm too lazy to go back and look) as if the game was going to continue even though I knew that the end was in sight.

Then again, is there much difference between saying "I'm going to do a CS Slingshot and I need these techs and these buildings and these Great Persons in this sequence" and saying "I'm going to carve out a piece of Aztecka large enough to win and I need 6 BB and 12 DD and 12 Transports and 8 tanks and 4 marines and I'll land on the forested hills and I need to do it before he completes his rail net"?

[Charles_Bronson]

Great game.

[Eggolas]

This thread was invaluable to me in playing my first Monarch/Marathon game (Qin of the Chinese on large continents). I especially liked the approach of moving towards Biology for increased power.

Thanks for posting your moves and all of the explanations.

[Strategist83]

Vel, I didn't read your guide until now. Excellent work, man - a big "thanks" for spending what must've been a considerable amount of time putting this guide together. Respect!

I have one question and that is about the rushbuying you say is so important. I somewhat dislike both pop- and goldrushing - it seems to me you pay too high a price for what you get. I'm speculating on whether it would have been better to aim for slightly less commerce but more production? That way, you would be able to build rather than rush buildings and could spend all the commerce on research.

Regardless, I am in awe of your display of Civ mastery in this thread. Optics by 260 AD? Insane, simply insane. Wow!

[jsolo15]

Thank you

Velociryx

I'm new to the game, only been playing for 3 weeks now. Let me tell this was a great guide.

I love all the detail you used.

I'm trying to use your Strategy with America.

Thanks
Jsolo

[jsolo15]

Tried my hand of CS Slingshot

I'am playing American
Large Map
Monarch
Epic
9 Random AI

It took awhile, I finally was able to get the CS slingshot to work. I get a early tech lead. In f9 , like vel workshop, Iam first in GNP. It seems as soon as my four city goes up or I reach Guilds. (I usually get someone demanding it) If I refuse they declare War on me me and I just lose it.

I just don't have the military or the ability to produce troops to protect myself.

I was able to use the tactic in Prince Level. In Monarch it just seems I can't produce a Army fast enough.

Any help would be awesome.

Here is my save file.

Jsolo
Lost Military Leader.

[couerdelion]

First recognised that, having completed a slingshot, you are likely to be a little behind the game in some areas, typically military and land/cities. This is the first place you need to start to catch up. With a bureaucratic capital, once you’ve got the academy then get everyone working those tiles and churn out first some troops and then some settlers. After that, operate your lesser cities as slaves to your capital serving its every whim. Let your capital build what it wants while the other cities handle all the dirty work.

If you’ve got Guilds with only four cities then you are either flying through the techs or are taking too long to settle new cities.

It may also be that you need to practice a bit on the military side of the game. Knowing when and where to fight, how to fight and what to fight with. With Civil Service you should easily get yourself the highest quality army around so you should really be able to pick your fights.

[jsolo15]

Originally posted by couerdelion
First recognised that, having completed a slingshot, you are likely to be a little behind the game in some areas, typically military and land/cities. This is the first place you need to start to catch up. With a bureaucratic capital, once you’ve got the academy then get everyone working those tiles and churn out first some troops and then some settlers. After that, operate your lesser cities as slaves to your capital serving its every whim. Let your capital build what it wants while the other cities handle all the dirty work.

If you’ve got Guilds with only four cities then you are either flying through the techs or are taking too long to settle new cities.

It may also be that you need to practice a bit on the military side of the game. Knowing when and where to fight, how to fight and what to fight with. With Civil Service you should easily get yourself the highest quality army around so you should really be able to pick your fights.

Good points

In the case of the game I have attached here. I was surrounded by other Civil.

I have the Mogs & Rome to the North and Spain and Persia to the South.

By the time I have CS slingshot finish. The Mogs and Spain have built cities on my culture borders. As I continue the game. I started to focus on Military. I had about 10 units build (5Axeman 2 spearman 4 Cats and a War Elephant)

When Rome came calling for guilds. I just don't see how I could produce troop faster. I did notice on my 4 Axeman. I went from make them every 3 turn to 6 turn per unit.

Another difference I notice building units and Buildings was 100 behind Vel. I went back and look at my successful games in Warlord and Prince and found the same thing there to. It seems I was always able to get my military ready to invade and take down the other culture.

I just finding the AI build up hard to over come.

In another game (The one before this) I had 5 city up and running. I had about 10 units (6 Axeman , 4 Cats had two more Axeman coming.) I decalre War against the Inca. ( They only had Archer and thier UU) I was able to take 3 city. They sue for peace but wanted me to pay them 100gp and a tech for 10 year peace treaty.

I refuse in the next turn.I get hit by a Stack of 4 Archer Horseman and 4 Cats with 3exp Promotion on each unit. Ofcourse I lose the capture cities and my attack force.

I defended my 5 city and got the Inca to sign a 10 year peace treaty. I was not able to recover after that within 10 turn France came after me and bascially took me out.