Game Speeds

[The_Paladin]

I am curious what people think of this issue and I apologize if its already been discussed. I know there was a subject on game speeds before but I don't think this particular aspect was discussed.

I personally like the slower speeds. It gives your units more time to be effective and seems more 'realistic', if a game actually can be. It annoyed me when I would get riflemen, send them across the ocean, only to have them face marines / tanks in normal speed. Marathon helps a lot with that problem and I imagine that was the point allowing different speeds.

However the issue I'm talking about is ratio of unit costs to building costs to growth times in the different speeds. Take for example normal speed vs. marathon.

In normal it takes you 100 production to create a settler, 120 to create stonehenge and 60 to create a granary. Whereas in marathon it takes 200 production to make a settler, 360 to create stonehenge, and 180 to make a granary.

This changes the usefulness of the various buildings and also can drastically change strategies. The main problem I have is that, settlers and workers are lumped in with the rest of the units. Since growth is x3 in marathon I think the settlers and workers should also be x3. I'm fine with the rest of the units being x2 but those key, food based, units should be proportional to the rate of city growth.

What do other people think of this? Good option or unbalancing in the sense that the game is balanced for normal play presumably but the other speeds unbalance the usefulness of some buildings / traits?

[Deity Dude]

My faovrite are Normal and Epic - But I speak as an MP player

[Willem]

Re: Game Speeds

Originally posted by The_Paladin
The main problem I have is that, settlers and workers are lumped in with the rest of the units. Since growth is x3 in marathon I think the settlers and workers should also be x3. I'm fine with the rest of the units being x2 but those key, food based, units should be proportional to the rate of city growth.

If Settlers/Workers cost 3x instead of 2, you'd probably be toast by the time the Barbs start sending their Archer/Axeman after you, it just wouldn't leave you with enough time to build any defenses. I have a hard time controlling them at first as it is, I'd hate to think what it would be like if those two units took even longer to build. My Worker would be cowering in my city right up until the classical era while I tried to build some Archers to control the hordes.

[The_Paladin]

For the sake of doing a little bit of analysis while I feel like it:

Assume you just founded a city and you have a few 3 total output squares in its radius (2 production, 1 food / 2 food, 1 production).

Suppose I decided to use Vel's famous settler first start and build a settler instantly:

On normal it will take you 25 turns to produce a setter and on marathon it will take you 50 turns to produce that settler.

Now suppose I decided to wait until size 2:

Assuming growth from a two food square, on normal it will take 11 turns to grow whereas on marathon it will take 33 turns. Now build a settler. Normal it takes 20 turns and on marathon it takes 40.

Now compare the turn savings. On normal speed I saved myself 5 turns on settler production by waiting 11 turns to grow to size 2. On marathon I saved myself 10 turns settler production.

If we consider 3 turns on marathon to equal 1 turn on normal (which since growth is x3 that's reasonable), the problem here is that on normal I save 5 turns waiting for growth that takes 11 turns but on marathon I only save 3.33 equivalent turns by waiting the same 11 equivalent turns. That means on normal I save 50% more turns, on average than on marathon. Thus it makes waiting to build settlers on marathon much less appealing than on normal.

A similar analysis can be done based on using granaries to grow faster to produce settlers earlier. Normal good idea... marathon not so much.

Now consider a wonder builder strategy. I want to start by producing Stonehenge. Normal Stonehenge costs me 120 production compared to my 100 production settler. So if I wanted to build the henge before my first settler that's an ok idea. However marathon Stonehenge costs 360 but a settler only costs 200. I can practically have 2 settlers first so I can hardly afford to build the henge first.

Another interesting thing I've noted is that the AI is actually harder on marathon speeds. It is able to expand much faster that humans are on those difficulties. That means that it will have more cities - horizontal expansion - with less upkeep due to their bonuses. Humans cannot afford such horizontal expansion due to upkeep costs. Now since settlers are cheaper when compared to growth times on marathon speed, when their horizontal expansion happens they will be in a much stronger position than the poor human with a handful of cities waiting for slower growth times, comparatively to normal speed. This may be just my experience but it seems to make logical sense to me (but a crazy man always thinks he's sane ).

Anyways just some food for thought. I've been toying around with the idea of changing the costs of just the worker and the settler such that on the marathon speed they also get multiplied by 3 in production times, to bring it in line with growth and wanted to get some other opinions first.

[The_Paladin]

Re: Re: Game Speeds

Originally posted by Willem


If Settlers/Workers cost 3x instead of 2, you'd probably be toast by the time the Barbs start sending their Archer/Axeman after you, it just wouldn't leave you with enough time to build any defenses. I have a hard time controlling them at first as it is, I'd hate to think what it would be like if those two units took even longer to build. My Worker would be cowering in my city right up until the classical era while I tried to build some Archers to control the hordes.

You are right, of course, about the barbs. If the change was to be made to x3 for settlers / workers I would also probably advocate for the barbarian multiplier in the XML file to be changed as well, to slow them down to the x3. They are another issue incidently. They show up earlier on the slower speeds... I can put off archery on normal far longer than on marathon (again because science is x3... barbs apparently x2)

[couerdelion]

Sounds like a bug actually

If build times are 2x in marathon then it would make sense to make everything 2x. Otherwise the game will be completely different at marathon. Years can just happily tick away at half the rate per turn and you are basically playing the same game as standard with twice as many moves per unit.

I've never seen marathon but can comment only on Epic. Here time is slowed down by 33% - everything costs 1.5x, although the years slip by at varying rates to standard (initially 40/turn at the start but switching to 25 earlier)

[Velociryx]

Marathon. Everything else is an imitation.

-=Vel=-

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Marathon. Everything else is an imitation.

-=Vel=-

Is Marathon a patch?

Just to be clear, marathon city growth is as 66,72,78!!!!! So while time passes by at half the speed and build times are doubled, growth costs are tripled. This rather changes the whole relationship between growing and building with runaway growth being less of a problem. Also slavery becomes less useful since the loss of the population will take much longer to recover. It certainly makes a granary a much more important addition to help along growth in a city.

[Quillan]

The marathon speed was added in the 1.52 patch. Before that it wasn't in the game.

[The_Paladin]

I'm with you, Vel. I love the longer speed .

Yes couerdelion marathon is a patch. I presume its the latest (1.52). You are also correct that it takes 66 food for the first growth time in marathon.

Just FYI, I used marathon as an example, but the issue exists in epic speed vs normal. It isn't nearly as pronounced but does still exist. Here's the relevant info from the gamespeedinfo.xml file:

GAMESPEED_EPIC
GrowthPercent: 150
TrainPercent: 125
ConstructPercent: 150
CreatePercent: 150
ResearchPercent: 150
BuildPercent: 150
ImprovementPercent: 150
GreatPeoplePercent: 150
CulturePercent: 150
AnarchyPercent: 150
BarbPercent: 150
FeatureProductionPercent: 150
UnitDiscoverPercent: 150
UnitHurryPercent: 150
UnitTradePercent: 150
UnitGreatWorkPercent: 150
GoldenAgePercent: 125
HurryPercent: 67
HurryConscriptAngerPercent: 150
InflationPercent: 20
InflationOffset: -160

So as you can see, growth times, research, building production, great people, etc, etc are all at 1.5x multipliers. Again however the unit build times are only 1.25x multipliers. Since settlers and workers are lumped in with units, the ratios are again out of alignment. In marathon this ratio is off by 50% (3:2) whereas in epic it is only off by 20% (1.5:1.25).

Just to be clear, you are correct that growth times are trippled and some build times are doubled (specifically all unit build times, including settlers & wokers, not the buildings / wonders). So yes the issue you mentioned of changing the whole relationship between growth times and building settlers to slavery, etc, etc are all altered.

Another thing that is altered that I forgot to mention are the benefits from chopping. In normal each chop nets you 30 production, approx 1/3 of a settler. Now in marathon each chop nets you 90 production, approx 1/2 of a settler. Those that love the power of the chop should try out marathon for a real fun time chopping .

Its my feeling that this is a problem. I'm not sure its a bug, persay, since it exists in both epic (far less extent) and marathon so if its a bug its a rather unlikely one. I think the 'fix' is to get the setters and workers out of the the rest of the units and give them the same multipliers as growth times for the all the other speeds. That realigns the balance between growth, research, and building production.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by The_Paladin
So as you can see, growth times, research, building production, great people, etc, etc are all at 1.5x multipliers. Again however the unit build times are only 1.25x multipliers. Since settlers and workers are lumped in with units, the ratios are again out of alignment. In marathon this ratio is off by 50% (3:2) whereas in epic it is only off by 20% (1.5:1.25).

On a straight comparison between the building costs I am seeing from Emperor Standard to Emperor Epic, everything is at +50% (rounding down). I guess this would mean that it is the patch that has reduced build times for units on Epic.

[The_Paladin]

That could be... I didn't play the unpatched version for very long.

If you want to check, you could look at XML file. In your Civ 4 folder, go to the Assets/XML/Gameinfo subfolder and open up Civ4GameSpeedInfo.xml. That should have all the info but it sounds like you are correct that these changes did come in a patch.

[Willem]

Re: Sounds like a bug actually

Originally posted by couerdelion
If build times are 2x in marathon then it would make sense to make everything 2x. Otherwise the game will be completely different at marathon. Years can just happily tick away at half the rate per turn and you are basically playing the same game as standard with twice as many moves per unit.

No, research has to be 3x otherwise you'd be launching your spaceship in 1100 AD. Typically when I play, I'm reseaching Future Tech 1 by the time the game ends in 2050, which is right on the money. And I believe buildings are 3x as well to avoid having everything built and nothing more to add. Only units are 2x, which means you usually have lots of time to use them before they become obsolete.

[couerdelion]

Re: Re: Sounds like a bug actually

Originally posted by Willem


No, research has to be 3x otherwise you'd be launching your spaceship in 1100 AD. Typically when I play, I'm reseaching Future Tech 1 by the time the game ends in 2050, which is right on the money. And I believe buildings are 3x as well to avoid having everything built and nothing more to add. Only units are 2x, which means you usually have lots of time to use them before they become obsolete.

You have more time to use units anyway because time moves at half the speed. Building them at +50% makes this even more obvious. My point was one of being relative to standard game and to the movement of time relative to standard.

If, in a standard game you start off needing 11 turns to grow and 11 turns to build a warrior, then where the game is moving at half speed (ie marathon) you would want 22 turns to grow and 22 turns to build the warrior. Let’s suppose you were also developing the wheel in this time (say 8 turns standard) then this would be finished before your warrior or city growth.

When we turn to half-speed (maybe slower???) of marathon, if we assume growth and research of 3x, but unit building at 2x then the warrior is finished first. IF the game speed is half then it would seem that techs and growth arrive later in the marathon game than in standard.

My guess is that the game speed is actually slower than half of standard since these building times would suggest that general development would be at 67% of the rate in a standard game.

[Willem]

Re: Re: Re: Sounds like a bug actually

Originally posted by couerdelion

My guess is that the game speed is actually slower than half of standard since these building times would suggest that general development would be at 67% of the rate in a standard game.

Well I wouldn't know how it compares to Standard since Marathon is all I play. And I think you can't really compare the two and expect them to be the same. For one thing, with Marathon taking much longer, there's bound to be more wars waged. If units took 3x to build, they'd probably be very short, very mediocre wars. All I know for sure though is that for me the speed plays well.