Slingshot question

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Alkis2
On the contrary my strategy works great on Monarch. Really really easy wins with almost no wars. You have to be patient though because at the beginning your research will be low. It's no big deal because you will catch up later. You say that GP are worth about 2000 gold for you. I will make no comment on that I will simply say that the AI will never sell you one their cities even for 2000 gold. If you lose the specific city site it's lost forever. Only war can get you that city and I hate wars. In my last game I had 8 cities, one of them barbarian that cost me a lot to get. Two of them were found by settlers built in "new" cities, in other words not from the capital. Even though I made a mistake chasing the Pyramids in my capital, I had the Acadamy there, more or less early. In my new cities I don't build obelisk unless absolutely necessary. I build more units instead and settler ocasionally. Also, remember that by not persuing the slingshot I can afford to research Archery

The 2000GP is just a “broad rule of thumb” value for a Great Person in a standard game (and should be 150% of this at Epic). If I could buy one, I probably wouldn’t pay that much unless I had a definite use for one but I would almost certainly pay 1000 GP (if I had that money lying around) most of the time. After the first few GPs, you’re “paying” 300 GPP per GP so those GPPs are still valuable and certainly not insignificant. I think that the level of return from an academy in the capital or a big commerce centre can easily justify this sort of price. For each new “town” worked in the capital city under bureaucracy, the academy alone will generate another 3 science (minimum – 4.5 if by river and financial civ) so the starting 10-15 science is really just a starting point.

Regarding city values, I think a few individual cities might be worth this much in terms of what you can get out of the city site. A happy resource from a civilisation with no interest in trading with you might make the site more desireable as might a specific wonder or shrine. But I doubt I would have to ever pay anything near 2000GP worth of lost production just to get a city. Those extra catapults, maceman or knights might simply delay a grocers store or three for several turns but will it really amount to that much. But in general I don’t think a city is worth as much as 2000 GP

Which basically means that I’d prefer, in normal circumstances, a Great Person to a new city.

In general, I would argue that CS Slingshot – the full scale version – gives a player a significant advantage in a game and the shortage of early techs should be recovered quickly. The difficulty with the strategy is that it can leave a civilisation "unbalanced" and the unfamiliarity of this may lead to more mistakes that usual.

Of course it will mean that you will probably lose a race for some prime sites and there is a strong possibility that it will be followed by a diplomatic strategy to recover some of this. Your biggest loss will be resource tiles and your next move after completing CS will be to look again at where the game stands and what your main game priority should be.

[Velociryx]

On the contrary my strategy works great on Monarch.

I do not believe that this is contrary at all though, and I say this because there are a number of folk who use the Slingshot repeatedly on Monarch +, and with excellent results. Having said that, I do not believe that it's the "only way to fly." Far from it. BUT...it absolutely IS the best way to max out your research in the early game. Nothing else comes close, because nothing else packs so many compelling modifiers into a single location (your capitol).

Really really easy wins with almost no wars.
Excellent! I tend to gravitate toward strategies that do not revolve around statements like "as soon as you kill...." so I'm always interested in no war strategies (figuring that if a strategic war will enhance the strategy, then I already know how to do that!)

You have to be patient though because at the beginning your research will be low. It's no big deal because you will catch up later
As with every strategy, the one you are proposing has its drawbacks and tradeoffs. For the slingshot, I would modify the sentence above to read: "You have to be patient though, because at the beginning, your military will be lacking. It's no big deal though, because your research will be so good that you can catch up, and surpass everyone around you later."

You say that GP are worth about 2000 gold for you. I will make no comment on that I will simply say that the AI will never sell you one their cities even for 2000 gold. If you lose the specific city site it's lost forever. Only war can get you that city and I hate wars.

I'm usually not terribly fond of wars either, cos warfare in Civ is, IMO, the weakest element of the game, but when you get right down to it, there's really only two choices. Guns or butter. If you don't like guns (warfare), then your choice is made for you (butter, by default). Given the above, it makes no sense, IMO, not to try for the Slingshot, because of what it can do for your early and mid-game science. The choices are immediately exclusive, sure, but ultimately, non-exclusive. That is to say that just because you do, or do not opt for the Slingshot doesn't mean that you can, or cannot research archery, or any other tech on the tree. It's simply a question of when. And depending on where you start on the tech tree, and the terrain you find yourself in, it might be entirely possible to take a detour to Archery before snagging the Oracle for the slingshot...or not.
The original question though, was steeped in the assumption that the slingshot was essentially a good idea, and I agree with that assessment IF your early game goal is to maximize science. So far, I have not found anything better. An early cottage focus CAN come close, but generally can't quite match it (an average capitol site in a successful slingshot game can usually match or beat almost any cottage spam start, and an excellent capitol site w/slingshot beats the other hands down for the entire early game).
Unlike the method used in the Devel I workshop, however, I try to chop out one settler before executing the slingshot, if I opt to try for it, and I don't always try for it. Sometimes the terrain won't support it, and sometimes, there are other, more pressing needs to attend to, so it's very game dependent. If it looks like I have a decent shot at it, I'll jump at it. Otherwise, I'll focus on the fundamentals (still go with the early academy, but focus on cottage growth if I don't think I can get the Oracle in the timeframe I need to). Not as good, but it keeps me in the running until I can fight a war and expand sufficiently to dominate.

-=Vel=-

[Alkis2]

Gus,
The way you describe it you played an excellent and very interesting game. But, you fought your way through. This is one thing I want to avoid. There is too much luck in battles in Civ4 and Murphy's low seems to always work for me. Wasn't it possible to get that city site, York, before the English had a chance to build it?

[Alkis2]

Vel,
couerdelion wrote :
"I think this strategy will be found wanting at Monarch level and higher."
and that's why I replied:
"On the contrary my strategy works great on Monarch." It's a pity I don't have a save to post.

[Velociryx]

Alkis: Right...I was following the thread of the conversation correctly, but IMO, there's a bit of confusion to be found there.

Your contention is that early expansion trumps CS Slingshot and/or early G-Man generation, but this is the specific strat that (from my understanding) Lionheart concludes will be found wanting at Monarch or above (mostly due to Maintenance costs).

Now...everybody knows that I'm a big fan of early expansion, so I'm sorta surprised to be coming down on the OPPOSITE side of the debate here, but that's the lay of the land.

I regard early expansion as a means to an end. Specifically, early expansion is great if you mean to parlay its inherent production advantages into the creation of a war-machine. But you don't like wars, so that can't be your angle.

You LIKE peaceful building, which is why I'm puzzled by your stance....the horizontal land grab is the hallmark of a methodical conquerer (as opposed to a rusher, who typically runs the conquest from one, maybe two cities). But this isn't you....and yet, you shy away from the early benefits to be gleaned by G-Men and the Slingshot.

I guess I'm confused by your goals? Tell me more and I'll see if I can un-confuse me...

-=Vel=-

[Alkis2]

Actually it's very simple. For a warmonger many cities = many troop factories. For me many cities = more science more money. Also by making many cities you deny that from the AI and you get more resourses etc.
It appears I have a save but it's long after my strategy was a success. 1580 AD. The statue of liberty is already been built in my capital. My research is 365 at the capital running at 70% and I have another two cities with Academies. I have two assembly points for armies on hill/forest which are for defense only. Very hard to srcew up this game even if I wanted to.

One interesting point is that nobody attacked me even though they hate me. I have Buddism and I can't convert to another religion because there is no second religion in my lands. They probably consider me too strong, I don't know. If you want the save I will post it. Please tell me how.

[Velociryx]

Yes...many cities (eventually) means many science centers, but this will NEVER be true in the early game, unless several of your earlies cities are near gems, gold, and other high coin producing sites. Otherwise, these cities will barely even pay for themselves before Code of Laws, which means, by extension, that founding too many cities early on, EVEN IF YOU'RE SPAMMING COTTAGES will barely break even until sometime comfortably after CoL.

Contrast that with the more immediate gains to be had by:

* Building an early library in your capitol (with its free 8cpt, thanks to the palance)

* Building an early academy IN the caapitol to further enhance this value

* Making an early switch to Bureaucracy to FURTHER enhance this value (all of which are segments along the path of CS Sling)

Even if you miss it, the early lib + academy are things that no one can steal out from under you and will enhance your position better and more immediately than any 2-3 non-gold, non-gem cities you could found.

-=Vel=-

[gus_smedstad]

Originally posted by Alkis2
But, you fought your way through.

No, not really. I didn't begin combat until what I essentially considered the end-game. I spent the Ancient, Classical, and Medieval periods peacefully building. I didn't start conquest until I had a huge tech lead.

There is too much luck in battles in Civ4 and Murphy's low seems to always work for me.

Paying attention to the odds calculator will help with that, though I wouldn't take it too literally. When possible, I avoid combats where I have less than a 70% chance of winning, and I usually avoid using experienced troops until I have 90% chance of winning.

Wasn't it possible to get that city site, York, before the English had a chance to build it?

Oh, absolutely, but it wasn't a very good site. I even briefly considered razing York when I took it. The main thing about it was the Horses, which were actually adjacent to Damascus, not York. York started generating culture first, so for a while the horses were inside English territory even though they were 1 tile from Damascus and 2 tiles from York.

While I like early expansion, and in many starts I'll focus on pumping out 3-4 Settlers as fast as possible, in practice on Monarch it's unusual for the AI to allow me more than 5 total cities from expansion unless I start on an island.

- Gus

[Alkis2]

The save, for anyone who wants to take a look. Eer what did I do wrong?

[Alkis2]

...

[Alkis2]

Ok, if you have a look at the file you will see that Medina, my second city is far away from the capitol. Eventually it gave birth to Najran. Damascus on the other side gave birth to Kufah. In other words from two settlers I got 4 cities eventually.

Please note that you don't need courthouses that early. Unlike Civ3 your border city can be very productive. If you build a courthouse that early you will only gain 2-3 coins per turn. Courthouse just halves maintainence nothing more.

At some point in the game, I don't remember exact date but it was surely BC I had several cities with libraries and two scientists each. I write this to show that I don't despise GP, libraries, Academies etc. I just consider expansion a greater priority.

I agree that the new city will not be paying for it's expenses but it's a great investment for the future. It's a long term plan.

Btw I had to zip the file otherwise the server would not accept it. Is there a workaround?

[Velociryx]

nahhh, you did right with the zip.

And I'll grab the save when I get home.

Offhand tho, if you're only talking about expanding to 4 cities, then there's ZERO reason that you couldn't just do both. Expand to a few core cities WHILE building academies, WHILE performing a slingshot....I guess the thing I'm not getting is why the two are mutually exclusive. It's...what? one chop, maybe two to speed a second settler out. The way I typically do a slingshot (when I make use of it) is to let one city run the lib + sci, and the other do the oracle, then both can father another city, OR, build troops and take one from someone who got too close. Again, with chop, I can build a core attack force of heavy hitters (6-8 units) in....4-6 turns (two cities building). That's such a small price to pay for being militarily set for the entire ancient age....

I'll definitely look at the save when I get home, but I guess the biggest question in my mind is...if the save is from 1580AD, and you've only got four cities, and you haven't been building troops for conquest, and you don't have an academy.....whatcha been doing over there in those cities of yours?



-=Vel=-

[Alkis2]

I'll definitely look at the save when I get home, but I guess the biggest question in my mind is...if the save is from 1580AD, and you've only got four cities, and you haven't been building troops for conquest, and you don't have an academy.....whatcha been doing over there in those cities of yours?

Err what are you talking about, aren't you reading what I write? I didn't have 4 cities, I had 8 cities. I built all of them pretty early. I just said that two early settlers gave me 4 cities eventually. I didn't have one Acadamy but 3 of them by 1580 AD, as I already mentioned. I also had lot's of superscientists in my capitol. And I had two armies, one on the left below Medina and one on the right on the gold mine, lol.

Anyway, see the save

[Velociryx]

Home and looked at the save....and yep, I was reading what you wrote, it's just that you WROTE 4 cities (see above) I get what you're saying now tho, and am on the same page.

Looks like it's a good game world with an interesting mix of players. Do you have the 4k bc starting save? If so, I'd love to try my hand at this continent and setup for comparative purposes. Played out to 1580 AD, per your save. I think that with the cities you have, you've done incredibly well, however, I also think that unless you do some MAJOR expanding soon, you will be hard pressed to keep pace. Two reasons why I think this is so:


1) You are #1 in population (and with relatively fewer cities). That's good, and you may be surprised to see it on the list, but here's what I mean....every time a city grows, it requires more food than before to grow again. Thus, bigger cities grow more slowly than smaller cities, and since you don't have MANY cities, it must mean that on average, you have bigger cities (and this can be borne out via a tour of the globe). The problem here is that there's no way you can KEEP this advantage in the long run....unless you expand (and at this point, expansion MUST BE via conquest, since all available land is taken).

2) You are way, WAY behind in GNP (f9 summary). You might be ahead in tech right now, but with a GNP of less than half of the leader, there's absolutely no way on earth that you can hold onto this lead. This, coupled with the fact that most of your rivals are going to be growing at a faster rate than you (and thus, working increasingly more tiles), means that your options for improving your lot here are somewhat limited.

On the diplomatic front, you have two large, robust neighbors who are annoyed with you. China is pleased, but China is verging on becoming marginalized on the world stage, and the other folks you've met are too far away (given the state and stage of technology) to offer any sort of tangible assistance if you get jumped. Mongolia, in particular, is a dire threat, given the fact that they start with troops with one promotion, and have demolished the Aztec (which means, at a minimum, a greater number of promotions for them, giving them a solid army of elites). Not only that, but Mongolia is FAR more likely to attack you than Persia, but if either of them attack you with any seriousness, your armies would be hard-pressed to slow them down, and your garrisons are pretty thin in your cities (1-3 each), so no help there.

I think that in this game, you are very definitely at a crossroads. There is yet a window of time left to you to make a play for greatness, but that window is small now, and shrinking. If action is not taken soon, my hunch is that you will find the game filled with increasing challenge and danger with each passing turn.

-=Vel=-

[Alkis2]

Oh man
There is no way the AI can beat me in that game. For your information I continued and it wasn't at all interesting. I had laboratories up and running before the others had Electricity which leads to Radio which leads to Computers. I researched neither military tradition nor Biology, I got them from backward civilizations giving tech that my main rivals already had.

Nobody attacked me. In fact Kublai did me a great favor sending swarms of missionaries to convert me. The extra temple did a nice job for my big fat cities Btw the main reason he is annoyed is because I didn't help him in his war against Montezuma. That alone gave me a -6. Wow!

You can play it yourself but you will find it boring, a player like you

Sorry, I don't have the starting file. I started a new game and the auto has been overwritten.