The Devel's Workshop I - CS Slingshot

[Hurin]

Well, just accomplished my first CS slingshot on Marathon, huge, noble. I also managed to get stonehenge built (I just like it) while the library was creating the great scientist and I was waiting for Code of Laws.

Very nice. I've got like 60 beakers in my capital now (there's a gold on one hill and I've got two ivory camps).

Thanks for the tutorial!

[Velociryx]

Situations where I would not build a worker first:

* Map dependent...if I'm in a constricted area with lots of civs, I can pretty well bet that I'll have company nearby....per the comment from Aeson above, if I can build a warrior or two, I can STEAL a worker sooner than I could make one myself. I will seldom START this way, but if I find a neighbor after a few moves, I have very definitely SWITCHED to a warrior and put the worker on hold.

* No special resources. The thing that makes worker first compelling in this instance is the fact that we start with mining and there's a gold mine present, and there's a food special we can easily exploit with one tech. If neither of these conditions are true, and the only thing you could do is farm a "regular" tile, then your gains will only be +1 food per turn, which would enhance growth, but certainly not to the level of doubling it.

* If I start with hunting - Very often (excepting on small or island maps), a hunting start compels me to go with a scout first, so I can get more huts/explore more quickly.

* Fishing w/ a seafood special in your starting radius - hands down the way to go here is work-boat first.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

And congrats on the successful slingshot!



-=Vel=-

[fed1943]

I think I understood Hurin 1st post,because I did the same mistake.Our problem was not worker,or other thing,first;we just waited the city to grow before begining the worker(Am I right?).It looked logical,but proved to be a wrong move.
Best regards,

[couerdelion]

I don’t think it is ALWAYS the wrong thing to wait to grow before building the worker. But if you wanted to get the city development going quickly at the expense of another city then worker first is USUALLY the way. As long as you have the nearby resources and the techs to improve them, you’ll usually be faster.

I had an interesting game the other day where I managed to throw out a worker, warrior, workboat and settler around 6-10 turns later than I would have managed just a single settler build at the start. On Epic/Emperor, playing Lizzie with clams nearby, the workboat was an obvious choice not just for the quick build time but also for the 3 gold that the coastal tiles would bring. I believe a plains forest hill helped me to send the boat out in 12 turns.

At that stage I think it would have taken me 18 turns (Epic speed for a worker). Instead, I started on a warrior for the 9 turns it took to expand and then switched to a worker (time now just 15 turns). After 8 turns I could rush the worker to completion since I had gone straight for bronze although he had little to do but chop or mine. Finishing the warrior and allowing the city to grow again game me the chance to chop and pop-chop the settler out quickly and he and the worker were escorted by the warrior across the mountains to the site of my new capital (4 gold, 4 flood plains, + oasis)!!!!

In general, the gambit to build a warrior until the city grows and then switch immediately to a worker after the city grows can work at the lower difficulty levels. At the higher levels, it can be difficult to get bronze-working in time to pop-chop the worker. In this regard, if my starting point had been where I built the second city then with Lizzie’s careful use of the oasis, it might have been possible.

[Hermann the Lombard]

Slingshot…and then??

Slingshot…and then??

OK, I just did my first CS Slingshot, but now I’m not sure how to proceed in order to survive and prosper when my military and expansion are so far behind. I started off by stealing—er, “emulating”—the path gus_smedstad took in his Slingshots vs. Expansion: a comparison. I confess that I totally wimped out and this game is at Noble, Continents, Standard map (I think), with other settings standard, as Gandhi.

4000 BC: Found Delphi, start Polytheism, start Stonehenge. [Wonder Greed? What Wonder Greed?]
3600 BC: Poly, start BW, founded Hinduism, did not convert, switched to Slavery.
3120 BC: BW, start Priesthood. Met Alexander well before this.
2920 BC: Priesthood, start Writing.
2800 BC: Finished Stonehenge, start Worker. 49 turns to Great Prophet.
2520 BC: Writing, start Meditation. 42 turns to GP, 7 to Meditation.
2440 BC: Finished Worker, start Temple.
2280 BC: Met Mao. Worker chops forest to finish Temple, begin Oracle. Assign Priest to give GP in 15 turns but now -1 food with only 8 in storage. Meditation in 1 turn, Oracle in 15.
2240 BC: Meditation, start Wheel. GP in 14, Oracle in 14.
2000 BC: The food bins are empty; juggle jobs to 2 tiles of 2/1/1 + 1 of 2/1/0 + Priest for stagnant at Pop 4 with 7 hammers. Wheel in 1, Oracle in 10, GP in 13…oops. Juggle some more, moving 2/1/0 to 3/0/1 for Oracle in 12, GP in 13 for now.
1960 BC: Wheel, start Hunting (there are big gray beasts over there with white horns).
1840 BC: Hunting, start Archery for defense. Oracle in 8, GP in 4. 3/0/1 to 1/2/6 for Oracle in 5 at -1 food.
1680 BC: Busy turn with Archery, Great Prophet, Code of Laws, Confucianism, Oracle in one. Start Animal Husbandry to look for horses.
1640 BC: Oracle and Civil Service, switch to Bureaucracy. Delphi is Pop 4 with 18 beakers and 6 hammers at +1 food…but that’s one single city and not terribly productive. I’ve got Alexander for a neighbor (as in “there goes the neighborhood”) and Mao on the other side…and no bronze, so hoping for horses and iron. So where do I go from here?

[Hermann the Lombard]

OK, this is where I actually went:

1640 BC: Start Archer. Open Borders with Alex, sending my Confucian Missionary that way to explore and hopefully to give Alex some Old Time Religion.
1520 BC: Found Alex’s border the same time his warrior moved adjacent to Delhi.
1480 BC: Animal Husbandry, start Agriculture. There are horses 7 tiles south and 8 tiles east; the former is in a productive area so that’s where I want City #2.
1440 BC: Archer, start Settler (11 turns), 27 beakers, brought in Ivory, missionary found Athens.
1360 BC: Agriculture, start Iron Working.
1320 BC: Found Sparta.
1240 BC: Open Borders with Mao, not for any terribly good reason, but maybe I can use a neutral or friendly neighbor on that side. Athens alone has 3 archers and a warrior, plus an archer and a warrior in the woods, plus the Sparta garrison. I have 1 archer and 1 warrior. YIKES! Spread Confucianism to Athens.
1200 BC: Alex converts to Confucianism. Annoying jungle sprouts to convert my 3/0/1 sugar to 2/0/0.
1060 BC: Corn farm gives Settler in 4. There’s a barb city 6 away from Delhi on the coast with 4 dyes and a wheat.
1000 BC: Settler, start Archer. Iron Working, start Pottery. No really convenient Iron. One is 5 tiles away, another is 9, one toward Mao and the other toward Alex…who has iron within Sparta’s fat cross, unfortunately. Escorted settler can reach Iron in 5 turns and Horses in 6 turns, but horse site has gold AND is on the river back to Delhi.
0925 BC: Pottery, start Alphabet; Archer, start Barracks planning Archer, Settler.
0800 BC: BOMBAY founded, start Archer. Immediate river connection to Delhi.
0725 BC: Barracks, start Archer, chop=Archer in 1 turn with extras.
0700 BC: Archer in Delhi, Settler in 6 turns…no, wait, can get next Archer in 1 turn while growing to Size 6 in the same turn, *then* start Settler.
0675 BC: Archer, start Settler, worker starts horse pasture.
0625 BC: Alphabet, start Math from real smorgasbord of possibilities: Masonry in 2, Monotheism in 4, Lit in 6, Drama in 10, Philo in 27 (didn’t consider Metal Casting or Fishing).
0575 BC: Pasture & Horses
0550 BC: Greek city appears only 6 tiles from Delhi; city will have Ivory and may culture-threaten my Ivory.
0525 BC: Nuts. Mao has built Xian controlling “my” Iron. City is only 4 tiles from Delhi so it’s an obvious target…but Alex is a more obvious threat.
0500 BC: Settler, start Chariot. Plan to attack with 2 Chariots and 3 Archers. So, use Settler or wait to replace Xian? Use it! That will require one of my Archers as garrison.
Trade Writing to Alex for Fishing in hopes of improving relations.
0475 BC: Founded MADRAS, start Chariot.
0425 BC: Mathematics, start Philo (25 turns so probably a silly idea). Completed first Chariot, start another. Bombay completes Archer and starts a Worker. Hmm…the Xian garrison is 2 Archers and 2 Warriors. By Vel’s rule of thumb I should plan on 36 points to attack; I was planning on 14. Ouch. 36=9 Chariots. Maybe I should investigate the barb city as an easier target!
0350 BC: Chariot in Delhi, start another. Recon chariot finds only 2 warriors in barb Hittite city, but it is on a hill. Guideline for that is 12 points=3 chariots. THAT I can muster. Oh, look, the two Chinese warriors are visiting Delhi leaving only 2 archers in Xian. Hmm…that only needs 6 chariots!
0325 BC: Madras borders expand, pressing against Corinth which has 2 Archers.
0300 BC: Alex ends Open Borders and offers nothing for trade. My second Great Prophet is born in Delhi; options include Monarchy and two religious shrines. Went with the Confucian since Greeks converted. Hmm…maybe *I* should convert to slightly deter Alex. [Fat chance.]
0275 BC: Delhi Chariot, start another.
0225 BC: Chop for Bombay Barracks.
0200 BC: Delhi Chariot, build one more. 3 Chariots attack 2 Barb Warriors in hill city; lost one chariot, took the city and renamed it to Hattusas.

And that’s where I am so far! So, I feel like I'm floundering; how does it look to you? BTW, I have the position at 3200 BC and several later points including 1740 BC (the verge of completing the Sling) and 200 BC; if anyone is interested I can post.

[Velociryx]

I'm in the process of creating the Devel's Workshop Ia, which (I hope) will answer this question.

I've taken the saved starting point from DWI, and am playing it "my way" rather than the standard 1 city sling, and plan to play it at least to Liberalism to illustrate the "next possible steps" in the whole scheme of things.

-=Vel=-

[Hermann the Lombard]

Sounds great! It's also a good use of your Copious Free Time.

[Arrian]

Playing on Prince I don't find it all that hard to balance things out post-Slingshot (I do the SS with 2-3 cities, not 1). I backfill techs and concentrate on military/growth for a bit. Still, I've been hard-pressed at times militarily. You're definitely vulnerable for a little while.

On Monarch... you get hemmed in really fast, and the AI is of course stronger. The cost/benifit of the SS (as opposed to a more normal REX phase) gets trickier.

-Arrian

[samspock]

I started a new game as Romans with the plan to go for a Prat-rush on whoever managed to be near me. I used noble (sue me on standard Pangea, epic. I don't have the exact timeline but I went for bronze first. Went for agriculture, hunting, animal husbandry, iron. I found that I had iron in my fat cross along with one animal. There was a stone spot to the north so I built a settler to get to it. Turned out to be crappy location otherwise. I started to make a few prats, I had france nearby.

I made couple of workers and chopped a settler. Founded the city near a marble tile that was inside the borders of paris. Went after france big time. All the while I researched what I needed for CS slingshot, not really expecting to do it. To make a long story short I managed to kill off Napoleon, execute the CS Slingshot, Built the pyramids, Parthenon and Great library. I did get the scientist. I had manageged to get code of laws one turn before oracle AND my GS. Paris turned out to be a huge add to my empire as it was in the middle of a forked river with flood plains all around and a gold hill. I would call this an "Agressive CS Slingshot." I got to fight, expand and still kicked up my research way beyond everyone else. I got to all the "Freebie" techs first. I even managed to get a cultural victory in 1944, about 15 years before I would have finished the space ship.

I would have tried for domination but was 20% behind in land mass and only 3 rivals left, Germany, India and Persia, and they were all had def packs with each other and liked me just fine. This is the second game I managed to end with those three at the end while playing romans. If you get in a similar game as rome and they are there, kill everyone else and they will be good trading partners.

[Arrian]

Aggressive CS slingshot is basically "doing it all at once" which gets harder and harder as the difficulty increases. Believe me... I like to do it all at once too.

Rome is solid for that sort of thing b/c all you really need to kick ass is some iron. Get that, and you can go from very weak to very strong in short order. One of my strongest games so far (Prince, standard continents) was as Rome - CS slingshot + conquest of America (and part of Mali, later all of Mali).

-Arrian

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Arrian
Playing on Prince I don't find it all that hard to balance things out post-Slingshot (I do the SS with 2-3 cities, not 1). < snip > On Monarch... you get hemmed in really fast, and the AI is of course stronger.

If figure that on Noble my position is eminently recoverable, but I think I'd get whipped on Prince from where I paused, and I'm SURE I'd get crushed on Monarch, so I want to sharpen my game.

[pmiller]

Been following the thread for awhile and thanks Vel for your work and contributions. I am looking forward to your DWIa.

Also I have been wondering if any of you guys have compared the CS slingshot versus going Pyramids to Great Library creating a super science city. Perhaps an idea worth examining in a different Devel's Workshop.

cheers,
PM

[smacfan]

Darnit! Did it again. Posted to the wrong thread.

Sincere apologies to all.

smacfan