New Great People Thread

[couerdelion]

In order to continue my studies into the relative trade-off in the game between certain factors (gold, food, production, culture, science, GP points), I’m keen to gather some information on some “variable” factors in the game and on the things that happen once the game is in its middle to late stages (in and around world exploration time).

Some simpler questions that I wondered if you could help me with

1) At the start of the game, each turn is 40 years but this reduces. Does anyone have a full list of when it changes and to what time period?
2) Can someone remind me what an Artist specialist produces
3) Are the following correct for specialists? (excluding the 3 GP points)
a. Engineer (+2 Prod)
b. Merchant (+3 Gold)
c. Scientist (+3 Science)
d. Artist (+6 Culture)
e. Priest (+1 Prod/+1 Science)
4) I believe the numbers above can change with certain buildings/civics/techs. Apart from Representation, what are these?
5) How many Great People might a typical (or strong) game produce?
6) What are typical values for the results of a trade mission?
7) Is there a formula for the Great Engineer production on a Wonder to calculate if it is finished?
8) Same with the scientists – how many tech points can they contribute to discovering a new technology?

My main point of focus is to assess the value of GP points and how they change over time and then to assess the comparative benefits of a specialist or town.

Thanks

[Yuufo]

2) Artist = 1 science, 4 culture
3) d. see above
e. Priest = 1 gold, 1 prod
4) Sistine Chapel = +2 culture per specialist
Angkor Wat = +1 prod per priest until Computers
5) At the end of the game, my next GP costs about 2000 points. So, I produced about 15 of them.
7) Great Engineer produces 500 + 20 x (city size) hammers.

[Martinus]

1) Check the file GameSpeedInfo (or some such) in the Assets->XML->Game Basics folder. It includes a detailed breakdown on how many turns there are in each game and how many years one turn represents (it varies depending on the Game Speed).

[couerdelion]

Thanks for this

This is all useful information and the 1 science. 4 culture for specialist artist seems to confirm a standard conversion rate of 1 science = 1 gold = 2 culture.

Of course, there's still more information I need and I realise that there is one piece that I forgot. It's basically a question of what to do with Great Prophets. It seems like a useful early GP but may have a much lower value if there is no shrine to create.

[gentle]

A Great Prophet is a nice specialist. He creates 5 gold and this can be very helpful to keep the science rate up when one also wants to spread early on.
In my current games (deity) I cant even think about an alternative way to cope with the expenses I have in the early game due to upkkep.

[couerdelion]

Not sure this looks too appealing

Originally posted by gentle
A Great Prophet is a nice specialist. He creates 5 gold and this can be very helpful to keep the science rate up when one also wants to spread early on.
In my current games (deity) I cant even think about an alternative way to cope with the expenses I have in the early game due to upkkep.

Let's assume that, instead of taking a priest I work a plains tile next to a river. This super-specialist does look appealing when you compare it to a worker simply building a cottage on the site. Even if this is not a financial civ, the extra gold while waiting for the GP pays for the shortage until the cottage is a town. Thereafter 1 less gold per turn.

But the extra food over 34 turns is enough to grow the city by two extra citizens so it would seem that the choice of developing the tile is preferable to simply making a prophet and making him settle in the city.

Surely there are more interesting attributes (apart from the Golden Age option).

[Yuufo]

Coeurdelion,
when comparing added superspecialists and land workers, take into account that under representation, an added great prophet is +3 science...

So, a specialist is now worth 6 commerce and a superspecialist sth like 9 ...

A pity that Angkor Wat doesn't raise the number of hammers produced by Great Prophet. I checked

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by Yuufo
Coeurdelion,
when comparing added superspecialists and land workers, take into account that under representation, an added great prophet is +3 science...

So, a specialist is now worth 6 commerce and a superspecialist sth like 9 .

I will check this although this particular question was to discover if the prophet has any other uses in the early game.

Of course 5 gold/turn is OK but I was assuming that representation would be unavailable for a long time. So when comparing the value of these specialists, the long term return of a specialist settling in the city is very difficult to measure because of the way the benefits will change over time. If I can work out a flat gold/production investment then I know the price of investing in something like Bank and can therefore determine and time price of gold for that build option. Likewise, I can make the same calculations for building a University, Forge etc (Pricing Military investments are harder). The answers will differ for different civilisation but will give indications about the best choices in a game where these exist.

The money/money investment option might give me an indication of the present value of a Great Prophet but there are other ways too. Trade missions for Great Merchants are the easiest while Culture boosts for Great Artists are consistent with my 1 gold = 2 culture conversion rate while retaining the same

To put a flat monetary value on a Prophet I can, for example, see if he’ll let me research a technology. I’ve just never had a Great Prophet to see the options.

[Hauptman]

Re: Not sure this looks too appealing

Originally posted by couerdelion


Let's assume that, instead of taking a priest I work a plains tile next to a river. This super-specialist does look appealing when you compare it to a worker simply building a cottage on the site. Even if this is not a financial civ, the extra gold while waiting for the GP pays for the shortage until the cottage is a town. Thereafter 1 less gold per turn.

But the extra food over 34 turns is enough to grow the city by two extra citizens so it would seem that the choice of developing the tile is preferable to simply making a prophet and making him settle in the city.

Surely there are more interesting attributes (apart from the Golden Age option).

So what your saying, is making every city in your entire empire continue to run at 90% science instead of 100% so that you could work 1 more tile is more benificial? Often i have to run at 90% or lower just BECAUSE I'm at 3 - 5 gold per turn negative. 1 prophet makes all the difference.

I find it far more benificial, to make one city not work any tiles that dont give food so that it makes loads of great prophets and scientists wich can then let me have a dedicated science and a seperate dedicated cash city that continue to do their job regardless of where the sliders are set.

[gentle]

You are mixing up gold and commerce ?

I mean gold (money) not commerce.

[couerdelion]

All I was doing was comparing the options of

1) Appoint a priest and, in 34 turns, settle the Great Prophet in city.
2) Work a plains/river tile with cottage.

Over a period of 70 turns you have as much accumulated gold and production although the Great Prophet option is now producing one more gold. However, in that same period you have generated 70 extra food (probably at least 3 more citizens) who would almost certainly be making more gold/production/food. So you’re better off (larger/wealthier/more developed) than you would have been by installing the priest.

Actually, at 100% science investment you’re probably not allocating commerce efficiently between gold-efficient and science-efficient cities. I think a better way would be to have a balance tech and use scientists in the science cities and merchants in the gold cities.

[gentle]

Originally posted by couerdelion
All I was doing was comparing the options of

1) Appoint a priest and, in 34 turns, settle the Great Prophet in city.
2) Work a plains/river tile with cottage.

Over a period of 70 turns you have as much accumulated gold and production although the Great Prophet option is now producing one more gold. However, in that same period you have generated 70 extra food (probably at least 3 more citizens) who would almost certainly be making more gold/production/food. So you’re better off (larger/wealthier/more developed) than you would have been by installing the priest.

Ah ok, now I see...different approach to stuff as we seem to play other leaders/traits.
In my games/scenarion I built stonehenge early on and I am PHI, so I am not investing a population point and still get my GProphet in 25 turns (4/100 per turn).
Maybe not really comparable then as I was using different premisses.
Good calculation against using specs too early anyway.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by gentle
You are mixing up gold and commerce ?

I mean gold (money) not commerce.

Who me???

Strictly speaking, the Great Prophet generates 5 commerce allocated 100% to gold because the 5 is subject to the same multiplier as other commerce in the city.

The strange thing is that, if you have no restriction on appointing specialists, it would be better to settle the Prophet in a city with science/gold bonuses of 25%/50% than one with 100%/100%. Despite the lower gold multiplier, the comparative advantage that this city has in gold makes it better for a home to any gold generating specialist.

[Hauptman]

Also what you need to consider, 5 gold is worth 50 commerce at 90% tech towards paying the bills.

From a 1 city standpoint giving up a worker square would be detrimental. But you have an empire. Specialists and Super specialists pay off better the more cities you have.

[Yuufo]

I don't like the farmer/specialists comparisons. Quite often, at high levels, your city has enough food to keep growing but there are unhappiness/unhealthiness problems. Fixing a guy as a priest reduces food production.

Moreover, the various maintenance costs are a function of the pop, so the extra costs from 3 extra citizens must be deduced from commerce production...