*Least* Useful Civic?

[Hauptman]

i started out NOT using caste system ever, I liked serfdom, making those workers faster. But ever since my first Civil Service slingshot, I realized how GREAT caste system really is.

The usual CSss works by getting writing, to put in a library while you research up to code of laws, then building oracle to complete same turn (or real close) for instant Buerocracy. however There have been times when, due to building pyramids, i couldnt build a library for the academy generation, But once code of laws came around, I could make an academy without building a library, and i could do it any city...

Also a good time for caste system, is during a large land grab. Montezuma declared war just 1 too many times, so i gear up for total war, mass my troops, and destroy his meager little band of cricket players. take a city, set it to POP its fat cross the very next turn by setting 4 artists before any buildings are even in place.

then once you have all that land, you find you cant afford to research at 90% anymore... well set up a couple merchants in those expensive cities while you build the courthouses. problem solved.


I would never change out of caste system if it werent for all those unhappy "we wanna be emancipated" hippies. usually i can trade for a couple more luxuries, and keep them working in squaller.

[xxFlukexx]

Hereditary Rule is very useful on higher diffuclties, on the lower difficulties it seems like it's weak, but trust me, it ain't. Hereditary rule is also a great war civic, newly conquered cities are pretty empty so you can have a size 10 ity with 7 unhappy's in it, Hereditary rule can save that city instead of letting it starve or be slave-rushed.

Theocracy is the bomb. I mean it's the cheapest way to get +6exp on your units for 2 promos and that's very important. Sure you have to spread a relgion but that isn't too hard to do by the time Theocracy comes around. It's a no brainer to swtich from OR to Theocracy when you build a lot of military. No non-state religion spread, bah who cares unless you are some sort of perfectionist who wants a lot of religions, just get the 1-3 religions that you need and be done with it.

Environmentalism, yeah I think this civic is weak, very weak. I mean I guess you can theorectically save 4 forests in every city and get +4 (+6 total) health and +4 happy when you finally switch to Environmentalism. But no way do I see you getting +50% production and commerce like DeepO says. I mean that late into the game you should have your max pop set up for your factories and powerplants and have high pops and be working almost all tiles possible already. Usually by the time I can get Environmentalism my good cities are around 15-20 pop and working almost all tiles, converting more tiles to farms for more pop is just a waste imo, I need more hammers and more commerce, working new cottages or farms is just not good. The only time I have ever used Environmentalism is when I had a small empire that late in the game and didn't have many resources so I just desparately needed +healthy anyway possible. Oh and lastly, I've found that Free Market usually nets me about 6-7% to my total commerce so I do not like losing that and paying a slightly higher civic upkeep for Environmentalism. Oh and sometimes it is funny when the U.N. passes Environmentalism and my State Propery fueled empire starts to starve, hehe.

Problem with Police state is that it comes so late in the game. Right when the Renaissance hits war weariness really starts to be a bigger factor. But by the time I get Police State I already have Jails up and once I get Fascism some city starts Mt. Rushmore asap and that's already -50% war weariness right there. Also the +25% production bonus is almost the same as Universal suffrages bonus to cities with lots of cottages, my total hammer output doesn't seem to change much. Although, if I am able to snag the Pyramids, mmm mm Police State is sweet.

[DrSpike]

Hereditary rule is awesome, and I don't think it should be on the short list.

[Blake]

I now believe all civics have their uses.

Police State is simply for the domination win. Switching to it (and getting it early) kind of forfiets buildery bonuses, but since games CAN be ended by domination in that era easily enough, that's no problem. After all, Raider3 Tanks can handle mechinf provided defenses are bombarded down.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Blake
I now believe all civics have their uses.

Agreed. Which you deem the most useless will depend on the level and victory type you are most familiar with.

[Marid Audran]

I was perhaps too harsh on Herediatary Rule; case in point is my current Prince game as the Greeks. I'm using some modified rules that I tweaked with that Gamespeed mod in the Creation Forum. I tweaked the settings on Epic where unit production is 100 instead of 150, and Wonder/Building production is down to 130 instead of 150, however tech remains untouched. It's created a much more enjoyable game where I'm not as gun-shy about building up multiple military units instead of previously where I always felt that each horse archer or phalanx that I build took away from my precious infrastructure. Buildings are relatively much more pricy than units which balances things a tad. It makes early warmongering more feasible and more fun.

Anyway in this game tech is a much more dilitory process, naturally, and whilst in antiquity I was running into a serious unhappiness wall in my cities, where happiness/culture spawning buildings were few and far between, and a religion had yet to spread to my lands. Running Hereditary Rule really helped out once it was finally unlocked. I also used slave-rush for the first documented time in my personal games; in the early game I was still connecting cities with roads and harvesting all my health/happiness resources in the field. One city in particular had a measely five population and was already unhappy and dirty. Ingrates. Lo, I was irked. I slave-rushed a library for two pop. Best bargain this side of Sparta.

Of course, once construction/masonry came 'round (and some resource trading), things improved. Still.

I don't believe Theocracy is such a bad civic per se, only that for those two promotions right outside the gate I prefer barracks/Vassalage whilst running some other religious civic, Organized Religion or Pacifism most likely. Of course, there are exceptions during late game.

I stand by my comment that Caste System sucks though.

[JackRudd]

Theocracy is best used *with* Vassalage. If you don't use it with Vassalage, you're going to under-rate it.

[MattPilot]

Re: Re: *Least* Useful Civic?

Originally posted by DeepO

Nationhood: Compared to the juicy commerce/hammer/culture/unit enhancing benefits of other legal civics this one seems sorely lacking, and arriving rather late on top of that. Drafting units for pop is a high price, like Slavery, and I'd only consider it in a dire emergency, facing invasion, though by the time one realizes this it may already be too late.

Very nice, but indeed a special-case civic. If used well it can be very powerful: before going for war, rush 1 or 2 units in every single city you've got. Then, switch back to something else... now use the masses of units to invade someone, and by the time war ends your cities have grown again.

You ever tried nationhood? Cause if ya did, ya would know that it only lets you draft 3 units civ wide, and not per city.

Not very good IMO. Of course, if you got a nice low-pop, high food city, it can be used to create free units.

[IsenMike]

Re: *Least* Useful Civic?

Originally posted by Marid Audran

Caste System: In truth I find the Labor civics to be the least interesting, and they tend to be among the first unlocked to boot. Usually I just run Serfdom until Emancipation. For the poll I find Caste System to be a fairly useless civic; the buildings needed to assign Great People are available early and aren't terribly expensive to build. On top of this CS is the most expensive Labor civic. I can only fathom wanting to run this with a Super Science City or Super Shrine City that ballooned in population early in-game, with lots of spare workers. A rare scenario, in my opinion.

If I'm playing a more cultural strategy, Caste System is indispensible. I pick a city that can support a lot of specialists, build the National Epic there, switch to Pacifism, try and get the Parthenon, and then pump that city full of artists. Then I'll be getting a Great Artist every couple of turns mid-game, which I can use to "culture bomb" my border towns, where I can also use artists, coupled with cathedrals, the Hermitage, the Sistine Chapel, and later on Broadway/Rock&Roll/Hollywood, broadcast towers, and free speech, to pump out even more culture.

Since there aren't a lot of buildings that let you make artists, the Caste System is indispensible with a culture-heavy strategy.

[uberfish]

Least useful? Serfdom. Everything else has an associated benefit you can't get otherwise, serfdom's effects are easily duplicated by just building a few more workers. Most of the really hard work- building plantations in the jungle - is done before I get feudalism anyway.

[DeepO]

Re: Re: Re: *Least* Useful Civic?

Originally posted by MattPilot


You ever tried nationhood? Cause if ya did, ya would know that it only lets you draft 3 units civ wide, and not per city.

Not very good IMO. Of course, if you got a nice low-pop, high food city, it can be used to create free units.

Erh, yes I did try Nationhood before. If I don't know something I don't go around posting about it...

Of course you can only draft 3 units per turn in your empire, but in a standard empire, how many of your cities will be size 7 or up (below you can't draft), and have barracks in place? At a time where you can use Nationhood best (whenever new units come available, most often with infs), normally you have less than 10 cities to draft from.

Minimum time needed for a drafting round: 5 turns (after which you can switch out of Nationhood again, to e.g. Bureaucracy). Drafting once will give you 3 unhappies for 15 turns, which balances with losing 2 pop, and the 2 happy you'll receive from barracks. In many cases, you're drafting specialists here. Draft a second time, and you get another 3 unhappy, for 19 turns this time. Further, if the previous draft unhappiness is not gone this will get added, so for the next 19 turns you have 6 unhappy. Drafting 3 times is not possible in most games, or you'll have to be willing to run the slider for very long.

So, summarize all this, and my rule is: draft once or twice per city under nationhood, then switch out of it. Now tell me where this is wrong... but please assume I've played CIV before.

DeepO

[MattPilot]

So, summarize all this, and my rule is: draft once or twice per city under nationhood, then switch out of it. Now tell me where this is wrong... but please assume I've played CIV before.

Your original statement came of, at least ot me, as saying you could draft 1-2 soldier a city per turn.

I was just clarifying that its a 3 soldier limit civ wide.

[DeepO]

sorry to not have been more clear...

DeepO

[Yosho]

Originally posted by JackRudd
Theocracy is best used *with* Vassalage. If you don't use it with Vassalage, you're going to under-rate it.

(shrug) I've got to say I don't agree. The difference between starting with 4 experence and 6 experence is huge; starting with an extra level is like getting at least +10% millitary production, and often more. The difference between starting with 6 experence and 8 exp is much smaller. So I would usually get one of them, and use the other civic for a different bonus (like org. religion's bonus to buildings).

[sovietwaffle]

Almost all civics (With the exception of the original 5) have their uses, and can be used efficently in certain situations. I will say some are lacking (Specifically Environmentalism, I just find that by that point in the game the only sick cities are the huuuuge ones), but you'll always find a time to use one. (<3 State Property though)