*Least* Useful Civic?

[Marid Audran]

What is the most maligned/least useful civic?

The logic behind all the picks in my poll is:

Hereditary Rule: I view this civic as one that people select, much like slavery, as a stop-gap until something better is unlocked. Later in the game with numerous ways to combat unhappiness martial happiness isn't terribly effective.

Nationhood: Compared to the juicy commerce/hammer/culture/unit enhancing benefits of other legal civics this one seems sorely lacking, and arriving rather late on top of that. Drafting units for pop is a high price, like Slavery, and I'd only consider it in a dire emergency, facing invasion, though by the time one realizes this it may already be too late.

Caste System: In truth I find the Labor civics to be the least interesting, and they tend to be among the first unlocked to boot. Usually I just run Serfdom until Emancipation. For the poll I find Caste System to be a fairly useless civic; the buildings needed to assign Great People are available early and aren't terribly expensive to build. On top of this CS is the most expensive Labor civic. I can only fathom wanting to run this with a Super Science City or Super Shrine City that ballooned in population early in-game, with lots of spare workers. A rare scenario, in my opinion.

Environmentalism: A very late-game civic which, though employing some nice effects, I think somewhat pales in comparison to State Property and Free Market (or even Mercantilism run in tandem w/Representation). There are many ways to combat health problems without resorting to civics to do it for you, although if your empire-management style is total tree-hugger (read: there are a lot of tree tiles you've saved over the centuries) maybe this is feasible, or if your civ has a lot of flood plains in its terrain that are turning out to be liability late-game.

Theocracy: An anemic civic, in my opinion. +2 XP isn't much compared to +25% building construction bonus (like having a free forge in each city) and missionaries without monasteries, or a doubled Great Person production rate (who doesn't want more of these spawned? that comes with other civics. And the all-mighty Free Religion civic is very handy for appeasing rival civs and boosting one's own research come late game. Theocracy prevents non-state religious spread. To me, that's a negative effect! I want to know as many religions as possible in my cities so that Free Religion is that much better to run, or it's possible I can switch faiths and still cull its boons. I can only fathom running this if one was in dire need of the XP boost, though for my money running Vassalage and building barracks is better.

Ultimately, while all are "strong' candidates I went with Caste System. What about you?

[Marid Audran]

This was supposed to be a poll, but for some reason the options didn't spawn when I checked the button. Sorry.

[DeepO]

Re: *Least* Useful Civic?

Originally posted by Marid Audran
Environmentalism: A very late-game civic which, though employing some nice effects, I think somewhat pales in comparison to State Property and Free Market (or even Mercantilism run in tandem w/Representation). There are many ways to combat health problems without resorting to civics to do it for you, although if your empire-management style is total tree-hugger (read: there are a lot of tree tiles you've saved over the centuries) maybe this is feasible, or if your civ has a lot of flood plains in its terrain that are turning out to be liability late-game.

With the shift up to Medicine, this civic is in my top picks.

Early civic if you beeline for it, on an ideal path to get the growth you need, and by focusing your whole game on reaching enviro fast and using it to the max you can have about 50% more production/commerce when fully entering the modern era.

It now is the ideal civic to make the transition between an empire that uses nearly half of its tiles with cities somewhere between size 5 and 10, to an empire with all tiles worked, running specialists in each an every city, and sizes between 15 (the smallest, cramped cities) and 25-30.

Later on, you gain more health/happy, but in most games these significant gains come to late: You only gain the extra size after RRs, and only some cities will profit from it to the max when you can start on SS parts. With an enviro strategy, by the time hospitals, supermarkets, and Elvis come around, you can switch away from enviro to e.g. free market. But at least you do it with max size on all your cities.

DeepO

[Blake]

The only Civic I've NEVER run is Police State. That's definitely my vote. My main problem is it's on a fairly obscure and end game tech.
The main reason I've never used it is that I've never had it and been Spiritual and in a prolonged war at the same time. I've always just cranked up the culture allocation by that stage of the game. The added culture helps push borders, and I can continue to get the +hammer benefits from suffrage, and the ability to RUSHBUY. I know what I'd rather in 95% of wars.

As for the other civics - I've used them all and like them all.

Caste System is a bit weak most of the time - cheaper to just build a library. But it has it's uses. Pacifism - I really like the bonus, but the cost can be steep. You really can't just go with a smaller army, you get stomped. I'm also inclined to use Organized leaders, which are much better suited to run Organized Religion.

I consider that "Stopgap" and "Emergency" civics are okay, that IS their role and reason for existing.

[DeepO]

Re: *Least* Useful Civic?

heh.. it seems I disagree with many of your choices

Originally posted by Marid Audran
Hereditary Rule: I view this civic as one that people select, much like slavery, as a stop-gap until something better is unlocked. Later in the game with numerous ways to combat unhappiness martial happiness isn't terribly effective.

On higher levels, the best civic in many situations for happiness (representation is the other one), and quite late too.

Nationhood: Compared to the juicy commerce/hammer/culture/unit enhancing benefits of other legal civics this one seems sorely lacking, and arriving rather late on top of that. Drafting units for pop is a high price, like Slavery, and I'd only consider it in a dire emergency, facing invasion, though by the time one realizes this it may already be too late.

Very nice, but indeed a special-case civic. If used well it can be very powerful: before going for war, rush 1 or 2 units in every single city you've got. Then, switch back to something else... now use the masses of units to invade someone, and by the time war ends your cities have grown again.

Caste System: In truth I find the Labor civics to be the least interesting, and they tend to be among the first unlocked to boot. Usually I just run Serfdom until Emancipation. For the poll I find Caste System to be a fairly useless civic; the buildings needed to assign Great People are available early and aren't terribly expensive to build. On top of this CS is the most expensive Labor civic. I can only fathom wanting to run this with a Super Science City or Super Shrine City that ballooned in population early in-game, with lots of spare workers. A rare scenario, in my opinion.

Caste is extremely powerful early on, if used well. You can build GMs, you can build all the GAs and GSs you want without any of those buildings (theatre is the first GA producer). By running an artist in a freshly conquered city, your borders will expand in 1-4 turns.

Other choices are very interesting as well, I'm surprised you think labor is not worthy. Slavery, empancipation...

Theocracy: An anemic civic, in my opinion. +2 XP isn't much compared to +25% building construction bonus

Erh... that is an extra promotion, right out the gate. Instead of 4XP units, you get 6XP units... unlocking e.g. accuracy on siege, or cover on horses.

Theocracy prevents non-state religious spread. To me, that's a negative effect! I want to know as many religions as possible in my cities so that Free Religion is that much better to run, or it's possible I can switch faiths and still cull its boons. I can only fathom running this if one was in dire need of the XP boost, though for my money running Vassalage and building barracks is better.

It is meant to be a disadvantage in some cases, an advantage in others. If you don't want to give other civs a money benefit, you don't want the spread.

Oh, and vassalage costs more, and let's you lose other benefits as well.

Ultimately, while all are "strong' candidates I went with Caste System. What about you?

My least powerful choice? I don't know... free religion, perhaps, but then again it doesn't cost either.

Slavery as I'm not a pop-rusher, but I couldn't envision CIV without it. It's one of the interesting choices, I just decide not to use it.

DeepO

[Blake]

Oh yeah I'd love some defense of Police State. I just think the bonuses are too weak. +25% for units is nice, except by then your cities are on +100% from Forge+Factory+Coal Plant, so it's only +11% in total.
War weariness never seems to be quite bad enough to force my hand. If I am seriously at war, I'm taking new happy resources all the time, and am probably getting Broadway & friends too. Even like +8 war weariness is quite tolerable. Jail, Rushmore and it's down to +4. Then 20-30% culture and it's sorted.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Blake
The only Civic I've NEVER run is Police State. That's definitely my vote. My main problem is it's on a fairly obscure and end game tech.

Do you think? I think it's pretty balanced: either you go the radio route (so all the late happy resources and Eiffel/broadcasts), or you go for Communism. Together with Rushmore, that's a 75% reduction on ww if I'm not mistaken... you don't need the slider at all. Otherwise, in too many games I end up running 30-70% culture.

It's certainly an early choice to make, though, just like enviro is: if you plan on using it, you can build the rest of your tech path around it. Police state is not something that you stumble upon by accident.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Blake, I agree that once you've got jails, broadway etc, police state is not that useful anymore (except perhaps in emergencies). I use it before that time, though... or I'm simply not the first to Broadway etc, or too busy defending myself

DeepO

[Blake]

Errr... it's Communism and State Property that comes with the Radio route.

Police State comes with Facism which requires Industrialism. That's some expensive tech to chew through to get to it.

edit: prehaps you meant it comes with the Railroad route like when you defer researching sci-method for a while. That would make more sense.

[DeepO]

there are two very distinctive paths in the tech tree at that point when it comes to how you're dealing with larger cities, especially during war. One option is to go the scientific method/electricty/radio/mass media path, the other option is to railroad / industrialism / facism.

It's all a matter of play style and opportunities, really. the Facism path is certainly a good option, but it might not be the best... but the advantages are chosen so that they reinforce each other: early industrialism means early factories. Add the 25% on units from Police state, and no happiness concerns because of police state and rushmore, and you've got a very potent war machine. Incidentally, tanks became available too, or are very close.

DeepO

[bonscott]

Re: *Least* Useful Civic?

Originally posted by Marid Audran
Theocracy: An anemic civic, in my opinion. +2 XP isn't much compared to +25% building construction bonus (like having a free forge in each city) and missionaries without monasteries, or a doubled Great Person production rate (who doesn't want more of these spawned? that comes with other civics. And the all-mighty Free Religion civic is very handy for appeasing rival civs and boosting one's own research come late game. Theocracy prevents non-state religious spread. To me, that's a negative effect! I want to know as many religions as possible in my cities so that Free Religion is that much better to run, or it's possible I can switch faiths and still cull its boons. I can only fathom running this if one was in dire need of the XP boost, though for my money running Vassalage and building barracks is better.

Totally disagree. I run Theocracy all the time when at war or building units up for war.

Barracks + Vassalage + Theocracy = +8 XP = 2 free promotions to start = only 1 (maybe 2) unit victories from a 3rd promotion.

Add in the Pentagon for another +2 XP and now you have +10 XP and 3 free promotions to start out. And if you are an Agressive civ nothing beats an Infantry out of the gate with Combat 1 with 3 more promotions to take. You can easily have an army of Infantry with Combat 4, couple Combat 2/Heal 2, specialist vs. armored units, etc. Awesome I tell you, awesome.

[Krill]

Any of the first 5 you start with, I would say...

Out of the remaining 20, I would say...

...Actually, now that I look, i think I can see myslef using any of them, depending on how I wanted to play the game. Only problem I would see is Mercantilism, but even then Merc and Caste System means I get 4 free culture in every city if I want it, and that over powers Cre trait...

[Yosho]

Re: Re: *Least* Useful Civic?

Originally posted by DeepO
Slavery as I'm not a pop-rusher, but I couldn't envision CIV without it. It's one of the interesting choices, I just decide not to use it.

DeepO

The thing is, slavery is still pretty good even if you don't pop-rush very much, just because it has no maintence cost. That can save you a nice chunk of money per turn over any other civics in that group.

[Yosho]

Re: *Least* Useful Civic?

Originally posted by Marid Audran

Hereditary Rule: I view this civic as one that people select, much like slavery, as a stop-gap until something better is unlocked. Later in the game with numerous ways to combat unhappiness martial happiness isn't terribly effective.

When you first get it, if you have large cities, the bonus to happiness is a HUGE economic bonus. I think this is one of the key civics in the game, and one that is almost always worth a turn of anarchy to switch to when you first get it.

[MightyTiny]

Theocracy can be very useful - in wartime, I switch to it if there are no strong diplomatic considerations speaking against a swich (such as having a different state religion from a strong neighbouring state you are interested in remaining friends with, and currently running Free Religion; switching to theocracy in this case would give you diplomatic penalites with your neighbour.) +2 XP isn't something to be frowned upon!

As to Environmentalism, it can be very useful under special circumstances. In one city challenges I've found it CRUCIAL; in OCC you typically don't have too many health-giving resources, but still want to have a large city. Environmentalism is worth a little beelining in OCC.

And of course, if you have a fairly small empire, and your main competitor's empire spans the globe, then forcing him to switch to Environmentalism through a UN vote can really run his expenses up (if he's running state property, which is an excellent choise for large states), and may be worth switching yourself.

The most useless civic.... I use Hereditary rule very, very rarely at all, and if I do, only very temporarily. Though it CAN be useful in OCC for a while, to solve early unhappiness problems.

Police state is another one that I think I've only used once, temporarily, in a war where I was running out of steam.

Don't use Caste system at all, though I suspect that if I bothered to look into it, I might find a use for it.