Continent Maps - An Analysis

[Sirian]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
"might do" is not quite the same as "will do"

It's up to Firaxis as to whether they want me to do more work on Civ4 maps, or leave it in the hands of modders to figure out and advance. Time will tell.

I can imagine, that making those mountain ranges, lakes and valleys match at the borders is a challenge, but I don't think an unsolvable.

Nope. That's not even an issue. The tools to manage that are already in place. Sometimes where the programming challenges really lie are nonobvious.

My main concern are maps with only 1 Eurasia and 1 Australia, but the Americas lacking.

I understand. I can't talk about what may or may not be going on behind the scenes, though. Although Soren is the type who will always choose to do something to make things better, if a problem is identified.


- Sirian

[MasterDave]

Some of my most fun Civ 4 games have been on Highlands maps with seas. I wish that you could perhaps raise the sea level a little from where it is now, but having seas as is still allows the interesting coastal/harbor/fish resources dynamics of pangea maps.

Having world wrapping on highlands would be interesting, but it would definitely make the game more difficult since you would always have AI civ's and barbs heading in from all sides. On Monarch level, I rarley survive the highlands games where I am in the middle, and with wrapping everyone would be in the "middle"

[Willem]

Originally posted by MasterDave
Some of my most fun Civ 4 games have been on Highlands maps with seas. I wish that you could perhaps raise the sea level a little from where it is now, but having seas as is still allows the interesting coastal/harbor/fish resources dynamics of pangea maps.

It's quite easy to do it yourself if you want it that way. You could even change it back when you want to play other maps. The file is SeaLevelInfo.xml and can be found in Assets/XML/GameInfo. Just right click on the file and select Edit. It will come up as a Notepad doc.

[Willem]

Sirian:

Why'll you're here, I have a few questions. First of all, what exactly does Minimum_Distance_Percentage actually do? The Minimum_Distance is pretty straight forward, but I'm baffled about that one.

And how does the grid sizing work? Obviously a Standard map isn't 21 tiles wide by 13 high. I presume there's a certain number of tiles within each grid block but how many?

Finally, and I'm not sure if this is in your department or not. I got my hands on a scaling utiilty and I scaled down the clouds in the Global view as much as I could. What I'm wondering, are those sprites, or whatever they're called in 3D, preloaded so that by shrinking them I'm actually conserving some resources, or do they only get brought into the game as I'm actually viewing them?

If they are preloaded, you might want to consider having No Clouds as another graphic option to turn off. They are just eyecandy after all.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by Willem
1. The file is SeaLevelInfo.xml and can be found in Assets/XML/GameInfo.

2. what exactly does Minimum_Distance_Percentage actually do?

3. how does the grid sizing work? Obviously a Standard map isn't 21 tiles wide by 13 high. I presume there's a certain number of tiles within each grid block but how many?

1. That won't do anything for Highlands. Several of the nonstandard map scripts have custom programming that does not draw on the XML entires. This might have been different under other circumstances, but it is where we ended up. If you want to change a map script, you need to understand how it does what it does, and where its data is stored. Highlands water levels are in the script itself (and commented) so look there.

2. Minimum Distance between civs is set to a varied formula. It accounts for map grid size and number of civs. If a given script's lands and land distribution differ from the core assumptions, this Percentage modifier allows you to change those assumptions in one easy move. For instance, Lakes has a lot of ice and tundra, and we don't want civs' start locations pushed deep in to the ice over min distance concerns, so the modifier is used to lower the result put out by the core min distance formula. This allows mindistance to continue to adjust itself to different map sizes or number of civs. (Fewer civs on the board will increase the minimum distance between them!) As I explained earlier, there is an optimal setting for any given map script, map size and number of civs, which puts the maximum spacing between civs. Any setting other than the optimal one will actually bring some civs closer together. It will be erratic as to whether you draw one of the short straws or not. Some games, you might get lucky and have extra room, others you might not and get yourself cornered.

3. 4x4 blocks.

4. Graphics aren't my department!


- Sirian

[Willem]

Originally posted by Sirian
Any setting other than the optimal one will actually bring some civs closer together. It will be erratic as to whether you draw one of the short straws or not. Some games, you might get lucky and have extra room, others you might not and get yourself cornered.

So I discovered. Although my early tests in World Builder indicated that the spacing I had selected worked, I had one game where Isabella ended up just a few squares away from me. I guess it's best just to leave the percentage as is and focus on the actual distance. Now that I have more room with sea levels drastically lowered, I'd like to exploit it.

[CerberusIV]

One thing I have noticed on a few continents maps (Sirian mentioned in another thread that the code for them wasn't changed from CivIII) is getting an isthmus with an inaccessible peak in the middle. This effectively gives not one continent but two separated by coastal waters.

It wasn't a problem in CivIII as you could get over the mountain but in CivIV you can't.

I'm not sure it is actually a problem - I'm in a game as Ghandi on a small blob of land cut off from 4 other civs by this kind of anomaly and as I have only room for 4 cities this one will be a try for a cultural victory - but it does affect contact between civs and trading early on.

[Ranger101]

I tend to agree with Sir Raph re Custom Continents map. A map with everybody stuck on one continent except for one isolated empire happens way too often and does not lead to the most satisfying gameplay. He likes to explore and find new civilizations by sea. There is no exploration if everybody is on one continent.

Where are the decent sized islands? These are pretty rare and add to gameplay.

In the real world, explorers usually found technologically poor civilizations (read "Guns, Germs and Steel" for some interesting ideas on the subject). North America (aside from Mexico) and Australia were essentially empty as they contained stone age people (barbarians in this game). South America was slightly better off, but still weak. Africa was never fully explored until the mid to late 1800's. In Civ 4, the Russians would have made there way to South Africa in BC era.

In Civ4, one can run a galley (or even a fishing boat) from France to Siberia. In the real world, the ships could not even get around the Cape of Good Hope until much later.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Ranger101
I tend to agree with Sir Raph re Custom Continents map. A map with everybody stuck on one continent except for one isolated empire happens way too often and does not lead to the most satisfying gameplay. He likes to explore and find new civilizations by sea. There is no exploration if everybody is on one continent.

Where are the decent sized islands? These are pretty rare and add to gameplay.

As I mentioned, lower your sea levels and you'll see an improvement. And I have it from a reliable source that the Continent maps will work better in the next patch. Be patient.

[CDK]

Is there any way to guarantee an isolated island start?

[Willem]

Originally posted by CDK
Is there any way to guarantee an isolated island start?

Play Archipelago? I don't think it's possible with anything else, and even then you might get another civ on your island. Unless of course you were to use World Builder.

[Aro]

Originally posted by CDK
Is there any way to guarantee an isolated island start?

I can send to you a save. Playing Washington, noble, continents, standard size, 6 civs. I’m absolutely alone on a tiny island. A challenge.

[Crossfire]

According to Sirian the Islands map should guarantee exactly that.

[CDK]

Will all or most of the other civs be on a single landmass? Well, I guess I will try it and see for myself.

[Ranger101]

Originally posted by Willem


As I mentioned, lower your sea levels and you'll see an improvement. And I have it from a reliable source that the Continent maps will work better in the next patch. Be patient.

Should I simply pick low sea level as opposed to the standard one, or is it better to edit the files?