Great People, What do you with them?!

[Yosho]

Actually, you don't need coal and iron AT ALL to build the iron works. It just gives you a bigger bonus if you do.

[Beatie]

Very helpfull all those reply's.. thanks.... I know a lot more about GP's now than before this tread!

(not that we should end this thread)

So basicaly can we say, that you better ADD a GP to a city in the early and middle game, and in the late game you just take the hammers or beakers?

And you need to specialize your city's, so that you can ADD the right GP in the right city!?

Great Merchants/Great Priest in HOLY city

Perhaps a stupid question, but if you build a holy shrine, do you mean build that with your great Priest? And if so is your Great Priest than consumed?

Same Question about Great Scientists, you let THEM build a academy? And them it consumes the GS ?
We use the GS in our Sience city of course!

And what about your building city? Do we use Great Engineers for that? Because your capital city (your starting city) is by long way not always your best producion city. So why shall we add the GE to the capital city?

And Great Artist are being used in border city's, or if you realy need a kind of resource quickly perhaps? (by using the culture bomb)

[Solomwi]

Great Artists... ah, that depends. I often settle them in key border cities rather than using the great work - +12 cpt, modified by things like cathedral-type buildings and the hermitage can create a steady culture creep that is (I think) more effective than the "boom" event. Plus you get +3 gpt out of that. There is a time and a place for the culture bomb, though.

That's a point, Arrian. Obviously, either way can be powerful in a city that needs culture, but in any situation, one will ultimately outperform the other. Without modifiers, the GA needs to be in the city 500 turns to just equal the output of a great work on Epic (the setting that puts him at +12 cpt, I'm assuming), which, if that were all there was to consider, would put the demarcation line pretty early in favor of great works. With one cathedral-type, that 500 drops to 333. With two, it goes to 250, which really opens up the possibilities for dropping him into a city. Now, with two cathedral-types in the city, once you hit the later game, with Free Speech and broadcast towers, that guy's kicking out 42 cpt (54 in Hermitage city), but there's the obvious problem of that being in the late game, where the situation's likely changed somewhat and the cumulative benefit to reap is dwindling.

The major factor working in the culture bomb's favor is the timing. You get at least 100 turns worth of the maximum benefit the super-specialist would yield, culture-wise, and you get it now. If 6000 is going to get you the tile or tiles you're fighting for, that means you also get the use of those tiles starting the next turn. The creep may leave you without them for quite a while. On the flip side of the cumulative benefit argument for an early GA is the fact that 6000 culture that early is enough to swamp cities that it later may or may not put a dent in. Then again, especially on larger maps, you're less likely to have a border dispute the earlier you get him.

Of course, there's also always the gold factor that you mentioned in the super-specialists favor. Ahh, it makes for such interesting choices. I like the fact that, even though at its heart, CIV is a game of who can put the numbers most in his favor, raw number-crunching doesn't always give you the best solution.

[Hauptman]

Originally posted by Beatie
Very helpfull all those reply's.. thanks.... I know a lot more about GP's now than before this tread!

(not that we should end this thread)

So basicaly can we say, that you better ADD a GP to a city in the early and middle game, and in the late game you just take the hammers or beakers?

And you need to specialize your city's, so that you can ADD the right GP in the right city!?

Great Merchants/Great Priest in HOLY city

Perhaps a stupid question, but if you build a holy shrine, do you mean build that with your great Priest? And if so is your Great Priest than consumed?

Same Question about Great Scientists, you let THEM build a academy? And them it consumes the GS ?
We use the GS in our Sience city of course!

And what about your building city? Do we use Great Engineers for that? Because your capital city (your starting city) is by long way not always your best producion city. So why shall we add the GE to the capital city?

And Great Artist are being used in border city's, or if you realy need a kind of resource quickly perhaps? (by using the culture bomb)

I plop engineers is my capital as they give beakers, and the capital (until late game) gets the most benifit from more hammers (buerocracy). Of course if i have a city thats just hurting too bad on hammers i may give it an engineer, or late game give an engineer to the steelworks city. And yes building ANY building with a GP consumes (makes them go away) that great person.

[gentle]

Originally posted by Solomwi


That's a point, Arrian. Obviously, either way can be powerful in a city that needs culture, but in any situation, one will ultimately outperform the other. Without modifiers, the GA needs to be in the city 500 turns to just equal the output of a great work on Epic (the setting that puts him at +12 cpt, I'm assuming), which, if that were all there was to consider, would put the demarcation line pretty early in favor of great works.

Isnt the control over a tile being worked out on a per turn basis ? you might expand your border by force (artist gives the city a new level) but will then lose it over time compared to an artist spec that wont immideately give tiles but over time captures them on a stable basis and may even expand the borders more than just the bomb ?

[HitAnyKey]

Culture bombs

I'm currently in the middle of a Marathon game. It's already like after 1400 AD. All Civ's on one continent and another massive continent controlled by the Barbarians. Of the 11 or 12 starting Civs, only one Civ has been destroyed (by me). I got 4 or 5 Civs on my direct borders, one of which on my northwest border I'm getting ready to invade and destroy.

However, on my southwestern border I got the Germans, who I've been at peace with the whole game. I've dropped 2 or 3 culture bombs along that border and am getting close to having a couple of his cities convert to me.
On my notheast border I got the Incans. I've dropped a couple culture bombs up there too, to help expand into his territory.

I've also culture bombed my capital once, I believe. So I currently have at least 4 cities working towards the 150000 culture, as they've passed the one that is just before that (I forget the value).

Now, havn't yet decided if the culture bombs have been helping me encroach on the territory better than just adding them to the city...but the culture bombs really helped in a few instances. Especially since I've also been concentrating on trying to settle on the Barbarian continent (which is hellava lot tough) since all the other Civs are still on the main continent.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by gentle


Isnt the control over a tile being worked out on a per turn basis ? you might expand your border by force (artist gives the city a new level) but will then lose it over time compared to an artist spec that wont immideately give tiles but over time captures them on a stable basis and may even expand the borders more than just the bomb ?

This is what I think I've been noticing. The great work might grab some tiles (especially lightly contested or neutral tiles), but I'm not going to take over established tiles from a neighbor with it. With culture-creep, I can. And I can watch it happen (mousing over the tile will tell you the % culture... and I watch it drop and drop and drop until it hits 50% and I get it).

I used to use the culture bomb more, but noticed two things:

1) If I used it early to engulf weakly-cultured AI cities, I was basically saying "attack me." The response on one particular occasion involved 10 Keshiks. :shudder:

2) If I used it in a recently captured city (say, the enemy's former capital), I would quell all resistance and get about 1/2 the tiles of the full radius. The other half would remain outside of my control, and in order to take them I'd need per turn culture.

This is why I've been leaning toward the superspecialist approach.

-Arrian

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by gentle


Isnt the control over a tile being worked out on a per turn basis ? you might expand your border by force (artist gives the city a new level) but will then lose it over time compared to an artist spec that wont immideately give tiles but over time captures them on a stable basis and may even expand the borders more than just the bomb ?

You'll lose it over time if you simply create the great work and go about your business. That can be avoided, though, by building the same improvements/wonders and using the same civics that you would with the super-specialist approach. To put it another way, there are other ways to build cpt, but not to get a 6000 point culture base immediately. So, to clarify, I only use great works as part of a comprehensive culture strategy, rather than a substitute for such. And as I said above, I never use one or the other as a hard and fast rule. It's highly situational.

Keep in mind that conquered cities typically go to zero in the vicinity of cities that have been building culture for eons, particularly during gunpowder and beyond wars. The typical culture bomb scenario for me involves a border city (usually conquered) in which I have or plan to rush several cultural improvements, but have not had long enough for any real benefit to accrue. The bomb itself, as Arrian said, grabs a few tiles, which is typically all the breathing room I need to get the city to start producing. Letting the cultre stagnate after dropping the bomb will definitely erode its effects, and using the bomb that way would be a waste of the GA.

[Blake]

Originally posted by Arrian

1) If I used it early to engulf weakly-cultured AI cities, I was basically saying "attack me." The response on one particular occasion involved 10 Keshiks. :shudder:

LOL! I remember the AI did that to me once, stealing my only stone supply. My response happened to be identical, about 10 Keshiks .