Problem with steel technology

[Strategist83]

In my mind, the cannon is supposed to be a renaissance weapon. However, the tech that unlocks it - steel - causes your civilization to enter the industrial age. What is up with that?

[Badtz Maru]

I think there should be something between Catapults and Cannon - maybe a 'Bombard' unit that's made available with the discovery of Gunpowder. After all, for a long time cannon were made with bronze.

[kseecs16]

yes there needs to be a artillery piece in between catapults and cannons, or cannons need to come out earlier.

A bombard might be good or a Trebuchet unit. Some sort of late-medieval/Rennaisance artillery is needed.

[Arrian]

The problem with something stronger than a catapult coming in the middle ages is this:

What does this do to the balance of other units? Say you add the trebuchet, str8 (cats are 5 and cannon are 12, right?), available with engineering. Why build macemen? Well, you would want one as a stack defender against melee (just like you'd want a pikeman to protect against mounted), but the bulk of your forces would be trebs. Str8, collateral damage, retreat chance, ability to get city raider promos?? It's now the uber city attack unit, without question. It becomes a no-brainer.

Possible solutions (other than simply not adding the unit) could be:

Make it really expensive
Make it weaker than I assumed (str6 or 7?)
Remove the chance of retreat - win or die, just like the maceman is now

I'm dubious about the game balance for such a unit...

-Arrian

[Strategist83]

Never mind. I looked it up and it turns out steel is indeed an industrial age invention.

http://www.worldsteel.org/faq_what.php

[Arrian]

If we're talking historical realism (as opposed to gameplay), cannons don't require steel. Early cannons were bronze.

-Arrian

[Bhruic]

I'd recommend something like a Culverin for Gunpowder. Str 8, so Musketmen are stronger. And you'll likely have Knights by that point, or shortly, which will be stronger (and faster).

Bh

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Arrian
Possible solutions (other than simply not adding the unit) could be:

Make it really expensive
Make it weaker than I assumed (str6 or 7?)
Remove the chance of retreat - win or die, just like the maceman is now

Or give another unit +50% against trebs/earlier cannons. Another use for the Crossbow perhaps?

[kseecs16]

Originally posted by Arrian
The problem with something stronger than a catapult coming in the middle ages is this:

What does this do to the balance of other units? Say you add the trebuchet, str8 (cats are 5 and cannon are 12, right?), available with engineering. Why build macemen? Well, you would want one as a stack defender against melee (just like you'd want a pikeman to protect against mounted), but the bulk of your forces would be trebs. Str8, collateral damage, retreat chance, ability to get city raider promos?? It's now the uber city attack unit, without question. It becomes a no-brainer.

Possible solutions (other than simply not adding the unit) could be:

Make it really expensive
Make it weaker than I assumed (str6 or 7?)
Remove the chance of retreat - win or die, just like the maceman is now

I'm dubious about the game balance for such a unit...

-Arrian

Well in my opinion siege should be the premier city taking unit. perhaps make this intermeddiate siege a 7 instead of an 8 though.

I don't think it would really be too unbalancing particularly since catapults are pretty damn weak and are usually facing 5-6% odds against fully reduced cities later in their lifetime.

[tboorum]

Historical background-
Some early cannons (bombards) could even be made of stone, but for a long time they were indeed bronze (bellmakers would shift production to meet demand)
Charles VII's French Army used cannons in the late 15th century post-Joan of Arc to reduce English fortifications and end the Hundred Years' war.
Gameplay-wise I thing 7 would be best, but it should be expensive.

[Mujadaddy]

Gunpowder should unlock the "Cannone," an intermediate-strength siege unit. Musketmen should be pushed back to Chemistry (or require Iron), and Grenadiers should be removed from the game

[Enigma_Nova]

(Out comes the tech tree)

You could make Trebs Str 7 and available at Engineering, but without the ability to withdraw. Trebs took a while to set up and pack away.
They should be about as expensive as Knights.

Also, you could make a Bombard at gunpowder. Str 8, same withdraw chance as a cannon.

[RedSox7]

Strength=5 to Strength=12 is too big a jump. Bring back the Trebuchet! Kind of strange to go from 5 artillery units in civ3 to only 3 in this edition. We could bring back the old MLRS also.

[Urban Ranger]

I have always thought that it is very strange that units like catapults have a good chance against your average melee units - they shouldn't. I think the combat system should be fixed to allow for indirect fire to reflect this. In this case catapults etc. have a high indirect fire value but really, really, low combat value.

[Axxaer]

Yes I agree somewhat about catapults, but cannons are very effective against your average melee units until they get real close, at which point we can assume that each 'unit' of cannons also has a small group of melee units to defend them, albeit ineffectively.