The game needs better civ spacing

[Cort Haus]

Natural terrain is the least land-intensive, since the Earth is more than 70% water, and of the less than 30% that is land, almost half of that is useless, jamming all the world's civs in to what amounts to 15% of the map!)

Is this why I sometimes start with Tundra immediately to the north and Desert immediately to the south?

[tijuanacowboy]

Originally posted by Sirian
The bottom line is that it is NOT POSSIBLE to increase civ spacing unless you also increase the total amount of land while keeping the number of civs the same. Larger maps with the same number of civs, or the same size map with fewer civs, or map scripts that naturally average a higher amount of land plots per civ. Those are literally the only three possible ways to increase spacing, and you have rejected all three solutions.

Just curious- how do you calculate the value of the limit before you start crowding them in there.

I would assume the game do a calculation after landmass generation before civ placement based on the amount of land?

[Sirian]

Originally posted by tijuanacowboy
I would assume the game do a calculation after landmass generation before civ placement based on the amount of land?

The order of the civs are shuffled, and then in the random order, are placed at the best spot on the map, then the next best, then the next best, etc, until there are no more civs to place.

It's possible to do it a different way, but only in terms of throwing out a result that works out less than ideally and starting over with different values plugged in to the equations.

The land will be what it is, so it's a matter of trying to place the civs as fairly as possible, without being able to make ANY assumptions about what is there in terms of amount, quality and location of land.


I also wrote a special start plot finder for Inland Sea map script, which spaces civs out almost perfectly evenly around the inner ocean. This is only possible when you know exactly what shape and dimensions the land will be, though. Then you can make assumptions that will always hold up, and rely on those. A similar process works for the Ring, Hub and Wheel maps.

I can improve the start plot finder further, but it's a case of limited development resources. Other parts of the game needed attention from me more urgently. Whether I will get the opportunity to do more work with the maps in the future remains to be seen.


- Sirian

[DougM]

Request for Sirian:

Can you document (or point to documentation if it exists) what exactly is the contract (responsibilities: what MUST the placement be sure to do) and API (what methods can / will the placement algorithm typically use) for the player start position methods in the map scripts?

I'm a reasonably competent programmer and I'd like to take a crack at an alternative strategy for placement that I think might address some of the issues people are having, but that's one of two pieces of the map script api I haven't figured out yet (the other one being what exactly the contract and API for featuregen is if you'd care to explain that too).

Have a look at my fair continents script to get an idea of what I'm working on. I'm hoping that eventually it will turn into a very straightforward demonstration & documentation of all the interesting things you can do with a map script.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146931

[Sirian]

Originally posted by DougM
Request for Sirian:

Can you document (or point to documentation if it exists) what exactly is the contract (responsibilities: what MUST the placement be sure to do) and API (what methods can / will the placement algorithm typically use) for the player start position methods in the map scripts?

Every civ must have a legal start plot. Legal = inside the XY range, land units can exist there. In the unmodified game, that means a flatland or hills plot.

Look in the Archipelago script for how to input the coordinates directly.

That's it. Coordinates have to be legal, and each civ must get a pair of coordinates. How you determine which coordinates to assign is up to you. Any process can be used.


- Sirian

[axi]

Is this why I sometimes start with Tundra immediately to the north and Desert immediately to the south?

Welcome to Central Asia.

[DougM]

thanks

The archipelago script is indeed what I was looking for, now that I know what I was looking for! Thanks!

[Willem]

Sirian

I tried playing a Continents game tonight and got all 7 civs on one continent. I've even increased the map size to something in between Standard and Large so every civ should have lots of room. This is really starting to spoil the game for me. I don't know how many times now I've restarted the game trying to get something resembling a balance. With results like that, I may as well just play Pangea, at least I'll know what to expect.

[Lithrim]

I totally agree with you. The civs do start way to close and it takes the whole fun of exploring away. I looked around this thread but didnt find what Im about to say. Sorry if I just missed it and someone already told you this.

You can change the min_starting_distance and starting_distance variables in ...one of the xml-files. Sorry dont seem to remember the name. They are as default set to 10 and 12.
I find multiplying them by 3 is a good number for large and huge maps. This at least wont make you meet all other civs in 20 turns.
Hope it helps and sorry that I didnt remember the name of the file. Its under the Assets directory and under xml or if it was the other way around. :-P

[Sirian]

Originally posted by Lithrim
You can change the min_starting_distance and starting_distance variables

You can, but I've already remarked on what that is likely to do.


- Sirian

[Aro]

Originally posted by Sirian

Originally posted by Lithrim

You can change the min_starting_distance and starting_distance variables in ...one of the xml-files.

You can, but I've already remarked on what that is likely to do.


- Sirian

Indeed. here

[Willem]

Originally posted by Lithrim

Hope it helps and sorry that I didnt remember the name of the file. Its under the Assets directory and under xml or if it was the other way around. :-P

It's called GlobalDefines, and thanks.

Sirian:

I've increased the size of my standard map so the Grid Width is now 23 and the Height is now 14. Roughly what percentage have I increased the land mass so I can adjust the starting distances accordingly?

Also, I noticed that Low Ocean Levels is sat at -8. Is it possible to go to -10? That would give me a little bit more land without increasing the map size.

[Willem]

Sirian:

It's crossed my mind that maybe some of the continents being generated were to small to support a good distribution of civs. So I've been experimenting with the sea level variables. By reducing them all by -10, not only am I seeing better distribution, especially on low sea levels, but I've been able to squeeze in an extra civ on Standard, while still increasing the distance percentage from 12-15, and the minimum distance from 10-12. Only on high sea levels did I see any indication of the jamming you mention, and that was only by 3 squares.

[Fajitaduke]

I have no horse in this race, nor a dog in this hunt (which is to say I'm perfectly happy with the maps)... I just wanted to mention that I hope everyone posting and reading on this thread, whether complaining, problem-solving, defending the game, or whatnot, realizes just how lucky we are to have a responsive developer posting regularly in a forum like this and provided meaty responses to questions.

As a follow-up to that massive run-on sentence, I just want to say: Thanks, Sirian. You're a grade-A developer in the field of customer relations, and guys like you will give Firaxis a good name.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by Fajitaduke
guys like you will give Firaxis a good name.

I'm more of an acquired taste, actually. A mixed bag. I tick off as many as not, because I express myself rather directly. Sometimes that's for the better, sometimes not.

I'm glad that Willem is finding settings to his liking, though. That's why the game is moddable!


- Sirian