Archipelago Game

[Verrucosus]

I'm playing a game on an archipelago map at the moment (otherwise default settings, Noble). It's my first game on this type of map.

It's 125 AD. I'm Elizabeth and the Privy Council in my head has spent the last twenty minutes debating whether or not I should continue expanding under present circumstances. They haven't been able to agree, so I seek external advice.

The screenshot that I have attached is a little awkward because it's zoomed out relatively far to show the two expansion options that tempt me, but still doesn't show all of my empire.

I have five cities on three different continents. Apart from the three cities that you can see there are developping cities south of London on my starting continent and west of York.

Napoleon is quite a pest in this game. He had the nerve to put a city on a small island just south-west of London which I hope to absorb peacefully. More of a concern is that he has established a foothold on my western continent to the northwest of York.

The Egyptians are blessed with a relatively large continent in the East. I have recently established Canterbury as a foothold there.

I have also met the Aztecs in the far North - they have now a small colony the island east of Egypt - and the Chinese in the far South East. Montezuma is annoyed and has rescinded an open-borders-agreement. The others are cautious but have been willing to trade techs with me. I have done a lot of exploring and my first galley and it scout have just discovered a new landmass to the south of Egypt.

The tech situation is somewhat mixed. I'm only six turns from discovering Optics (which has been my long term tech goal from the start). I have no science-culture techs beyond the Alphabet and I have neglected the social techs in the middle of the tech tree. Because I have not founded a religion I felt it necessary to get Stonehenge (in London). However, Confucianism has just spread from France to Canterbury where it is desperately needed to avoid cultural assimilation to Egypt. The Egyptians have built the Oracle, the French the Pyramids. Defence is a concern. So far I have only token garrisons, and I have horses and copper, but no iron.

Finally, I have been very reluctant to chop lots of forests this time because I feel I might need them eventually to balance all the coastal tiles I work.

The immediate question is what to build next in York. My original plan - as apparent from the screenshot - was to build a harbour next. However, the city having just finished its forge is such a fine production center that can build the Colossus in just nine turns. That's what I intend to do unless there is a good case for training a settler.

While there is no room for further expansion on my two main continents and the landmass south of Egypt is too far away before Galleons, there are two spots that tempt me.

One is halfway between Paris and Heliopolis. The nine squares in the northwest of the Egyptian continent are not yet under the cultural influence of Heliopolis. They contain a lot of jungle, but also a river, rice and ivory. If I could establish (and keep) a city there, it would strengthen my foothold in Canterbury and be a great base for an attack against Paris later in the game. Of course, I'm worried about putting a new city just between the border of the creative Egyptians and the French capital with the Pyramids. (One option would be to make a dash for Music and use the free Artist to prevent culture flipping, but it still seems risky.)

The second idea is even more of a risk, but I thought I'd mention it. There are two barren islands to the north of Egypt (and to the south of Montezuma's territory)containing iron. They were both unoccupied when my exploration force was there some 40 turns ago. Is there any chance that they still are and (if so) is it reasonable to send a settler.

I seriously consider these risky options because I don't feel comfortable yet with just five cities and caravels - which will become available to me shortly - cannot transport settlers to other territories that they might discover.

I'm afraid my game is already too far advanced to discuss it in general terms of "expanding on Archipelago maps", but such advice will be as much appreciated as any tips on how to proceed in the situation as it is.

[Verrucosus]

Oh, I think I went overboard with decreasing the size of that picture. For more detail, here is the savefile (v1.52).

[Velociryx]

I prolly won't be able to give a timely answer, cos I've got another game to look at before I can dive into this one, but I'll download this one and have a closer look when I get home and caught up on the evening chores.

In looking at the screenie, the first question that popped into my mind was what does the terrain between Canterbury and your proposed city cite on the Egyptian Isle look like? If it's viable enough to also support a city, I'd be moving in on them in droves (with a plan to make libraries and courthouses among the first builds, so as to a) counter the expense, and b) counter Egypt's creative trait (and the cultural pressure from the Pyramids).

With regards to the Iron Isle...it's far from home, and under normal circumstances, I'd shy away from it, but if it's the only source of Iron you see, then I'd definitely make a play for it (assuming it's not already occupied...40 turns = loooong time). That'd be three new cities in the works (again, this is just from the screenie...I'm at work, so I don't have any means of loading the save for a closer inspection...you may not be able to afford three new cities under the present conditions, but if so...man, that'd rock, and the three new ones would be well-positioned to support each other. Of course, it all but guarantees that you'll butt heads with Egypt at some point (and Aztec, if the Iron is very close to his territory). That might be more than you want to tangle with, and if so, then I'd agitate for an invasion of France. Their territory is much closer, and would be easier to control than being so spread out (and this still leaves the "Canturbury Option" open for later, while keeping distance between you and Montazuma)....AND it comes with the added bonus of netting you the Pyramids!

-=Vel=-

[Verrucosus]

Thanks for your comments! (No need to hurry, by the way - I won't be able to continue the game before tomorrow.)

I'm afraid the area to the northwest of Canterbury is mostly jungle, so it should be difficult to get a viable city up and running there. Even the proposed city site is problematic in that respect, but the two specials and the geostrategic aspect make it tempting.

At the moment there is also a logistical problem in conducting a massive expansion: There is no direct sea route between London and Canterbury yet. At this point any settlers and workers would have to come from the western continent via French waters.

[Velociryx]

Ah....well, in that case, I'll see if I can get a bit ahead of the game and crack open the save tonight!

-=Vel=-

[Kirghiz]

If all you have is token garrisons than you may need to think about building a stout military. If Montezuma has broken off an open borders deal with you than that means Montezuma thinks you are weak militarily and usually precedes an invasion from him inside of ten turns. Even if this does not play out this way, building a military will get you ready for an invasion of France.

Are you friendly enough with anyone to trade for Iron? Usually Hatshepsut is pretty agreeable. You may have to give up three or four happiness resources to get it though, but at least you'll have it for an invasion of France.

[Blake]

You might be able to found another city in Eygpt Land, North-West of Canterbury, next to the mountain, where it is coastal, on a river and in range of the Elephants and Rice. You could build the settler in York and an Axeman garrison in Hastings.

After that, invading France with a catapult/axeman/horseman army would be good.

I wouldn't bother with Optics for now, there are better things to go for. Focus on conquering France and get yourself a religion and the Pyramids. Also getting rid of that mentally unstable nutcase is a good thing, since you have two other mentally unstable nutcases to worry about (mao and monty).

You could also found some more "fishing villages" too, since the Collosus will make every sea tile 2-0-4 with just the investment of a lighthouse. Each of these cities will bring in a base of 5 commerce from the city tile+coastal tile, then another 6 commerce from 3 trade routes (since you have Great Lighthouse). They'll only cost 2-3 upkeep, so that's +8 commerce profit a turn, that is A LOT more net profit than you'd get from a library.

[Verrucosus]

Kirghiz is right about the military situation. My army is at this point not even much of a defense, so an invasion of France seems a rather long term prospect. It would require not just a sizeable fighting force, but also a quite few more galleys to get them to France in one move. For the near future, I was hoping to get enough of a navy to keep my coasts safe because naval technology is about the only area where I have a distinct advantage at this point.

There are lots of ways to consolidate the present position, the Colossus and the building of harbours being the most intriguing option. Additional coastal villages on my original continents are also an option. The most urgent question is still whether to go for a second city in the northwest of Canterbury despite the foreign culture coming from Heliopolis and Paris. When I get home tonight I'll consider the alternative site suggested by Blake.

Thanks for everyone's comments. I look forward to continue this game in the evening.

[Diadem]

Peaceful expansion will not bring you very far in that game I fear. The only site I can see is the one you proposed, and that one is already cramped, with cultural pressure from a creative egypt.

I think you should go to war with France. Paris lies in a really excellent location. The other cities he has are useless, raze 'em. You have no army now, but you do have some excellent production cities. You should be able to quickly raise an army to take Paris. You're gonna need troops sooner or later anyway. The only question is if you should build the colussus. Hmmz..

And explore the world more. Their seems to be a continent southeast of your starting position. At least, there is some land there that your galley can see. There's no telling how big it is until you explore it

[Verrucosus]

I've noticed that landmass, too. My scout is about to land there and start exploring. The problem is that it would take ages to reach that landmass with galleys, but if it's nice and unoccupied - I've still not met of all the other tribes - that would be a good reason to research towards galleons.

Given my lack of iron and advanced military techs I'm still reluctant about a short-term invasion of France, but of course I'm willing to entertain the idea - after all, that's what I came for. On that note, what kind of force (incl. ships) would it take to pull this off? (So far, I've only fought land wars in Civ4. In fact, I selected the archipelago setting to try something different?)

Anyway, a "military solution" is not something I had seriously considered as a current option, but I'll definitely take a close look when I load up the game later tonight. (No work tomorrow, so I have a distinct feeling it's going to be a long night!)

[Mujadaddy]

If you end up going in that Red Circle on your map, it's an immediate priority to get the city generating culture as soon as possible because your between Creative Egypt and the French Capital... that being said, put the city there and send a big mess of spears & axes to hold it while it builds culture... by that time, you'll have catapults and can capture France, razing his other cities as suggested above...

[Verrucosus]

I continued the game until 580 AD. After some soul-searching, I decided against an immediate military buildup. The Colossus and the lure of a second city on the Egyptian continent were too strong a temptation.

At first, things went pretty smoothly. York finished the Colossus in just nine turns, then chop a settler and sent him on his way. Meanwhile, the increased commerce income from coastal tiles allowed me to research in short order Optics, Literature, Music and Drama. Philosophy is just four turns away. I got the Great Artist from Music, sent him by caravel from London to the new city site where I wanted him to create a great work of art. Also, I hoped that researching Philosophy just after the founding the new city would make it the holy city of Taoism. (I read somewhere that religions tend to get founded in new cities.) In that case I could use the Great Prophet waiting in London to create the shrine. The combination of the shrine and the great work of art should give the new city a culture strong enough to resist French and Egyptian influence even after Christianity was founded in Heliopolis in 300 AD.

Now look at this:

[Verrucosus]

Napoleon beat me to the new city site by one turn! Does this guy read the Apolyton forums to find out what his human opponent is up too?

Now, this is quite amusing (particularly given that Homer saw the entire show from his caravel and is probably composing a hymn about it), but also mildly distressing from an in-game perspective. It's all my mistake of building the Colossus first, but it's much easier to blame the French, so I'm looking for ... let's call it satisfaction. The military option looks definitely more attractive now. However, I still have no exact idea of how to pull off an overseas invasion in Civ4, so I'll have to sleep this over.

By the way, there's a landmass south of Egypt with corn, deer, wine and sheep under barbarian control and an iron deposit in the polar area.

[Diadem]

Well that city site never was a very good spot imho. Too much bother clearing away all that jungle

That barb city is on a prime location! A really lucky break. An excellent city, ripe for the plucking, barely defended, already improved. Take it asap!

After that, take Paris

[Verrucosus]

A couple of questions:

1) At present, Paris is guarded by five archers and a warrior. City defences are at 85 %. According to Vel's formula (Strategy Thread II, post #4) I'd need (6 x (3+1) + (2+1)) x 2 = 54 strength (e. g. 11 axmen). Is it correct not to consider the city defence bonus for archers (as suggested by Vel's example)? How many catapults should I include?

2) How many units should I add to take account of possible changes in his defences? (There'll be a few turns between the declaration of war and the actual attack when I won't be able to check.)

3) Should I pursue astronomy (20 turns with current science output) to get galleons or delay it to keep the Colossus benefit as long as possible?

4) Should I have Homer settle in Canterbury, make him create a work of art there or save him for Paris? (I now hope to get Taoism founded in Canterbury.)

5) When Canterbury's cultural borders extend to touch London's, can I send galleys directly?

6) Should I create the attack force for Olmec (four axmen should do) exclusively in Canterbury to minimize travel time? In that case, should I send my exploring galley home to Canterbury for use as a troop transport rather than make contact with the tribe whose borders just show across the sea southeast from Nottingham?

7) Should I do more chopping? I still have lots of forests, but lumbermills have been strengthened by the latest patch and I might need the forests on this kind of map.