specialists and early wonders

[Cort Haus]

gentle, you are a Pyramid Addict!

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by dacole
I play usually for an early industrial (before tanks and scientific method) conquest victory)

Do you play Pangeas?

[gentle]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
gentle, you are a Pyramid Addict!

i think so ^^

btw, cort, have you been the guy with the holy city thread ?
thread seems to have been swallowed by the void.
I liked that approach and played a little bit around, but now the thread seems gone *sniff*

sry, for hijacking the thread...just ignore post if you like

[Cort Haus]

You'll be thinking of Common Sensei's Great Profits thread, I expect.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=4166497#post4166497

I'll bump it ...

[gentle]

ah no...it was a thread about founding all religions in one city.
sort of OCC til this was done, then start spreading.
could have sworn it was you, at least one of the "english flag" fellows ^^

[Krill]

I have used Stonehenge to great effect in SP and MP to expand the borders of my second city. Chopping 3 forests leaves you requiring 30 shields to complete the wonder. And Stonehenge gives 9 culture per turn, (don't forget the free Obelisk), more than 4 times the amount of culture granted by being Creative. Nothing is going to stop you from claiming all of the land around that city site.

That is to me what makes Stonehenge so powerful. Just takng over tha land peacefully, but quickly.

[gentle]

Originally posted by Krill
I have used Stonehenge to great effect in SP and MP to expand the borders of my second city. Chopping 3 forests leaves you requiring 30 shields to complete the wonder. And Stonehenge gives 9 culture per turn, (don't forget the free Obelisk), more than 4 times the amount of culture granted by being Creative. Nothing is going to stop you from claiming all of the land around that city site.

That is to me what makes Stonehenge so powerful. Just takng over tha land peacefully, but quickly.

For early cities (2nd or 3rd) there is also the option to expand their radius via founding a religion there (+5/turn)

There surely is a point for stonehenge. Depending on approach. When I go for a religious heavy strat, then I always built stonehenge asap because I know what to do with the Prophet. Otherwise Stonehenge just messes GP points up...most often I want an engineer as first GP and in that case Stonehenge gives me a headache when it comes to how to not get that damn Prophet ^^.

edit: oh..just for info...according to firaxis I am a "competitive single player" guy ^^

[Blake]

Originally posted by gentle
ah no...it was a thread about founding all religions in one city.
sort of OCC til this was done, then start spreading.
could have sworn it was you, at least one of the "english flag" fellows ^^

I believe I was the one responsible for the most-holy city thread.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144783

[gentle]

oh yes ^^
thx blake , sry for my bad memory

[Krill]

Gentle, that is an option. Thing is though, it is often a race for the first few religions. An early attempt for any of the first 3 religions is not uncommon, but a civ that aims for SH immediately is much rare, in my experince. It happens alot more often in MP though...

So, if the religions are founded early, you often have to go for them asap, and forget about other techs, whereas SH is right at the base of the tech tree, and requires alot less effort to require.

I'd have thought that doing this with Confucianism is better than with Buddhism/Hinduism/Judaism, though, for the reason stated. Do you find it any different?

---

Great People are something that I am still working out. They really give me a headache, that is for sure. So many uses...

Any way, just moved up to Monarch for a test game, Drew Louis (Chose Random), and another start that had flood plains. 5 flood plains, 2 grass hills, a plains hill and later found iron in the capitals radius.

First techs were Pottery>Mining>BW>Metal Casting.

Went Worker first. Worker spammed cottages on the flood plains, which kept the tech rate decent even when researching MC. I was on what was basically a spherical blob of land that was connected to another continent very an ismus, so I placed the second city right at the base of the isthmus. That city had crabs, copper pigs and silks, with a few plains, grass, and one grass hill. Built a fishing boat (just built the city before finishing MC), and then a forge, and then The Collosus in 8 turns, for the culture. The great Merchant that it generated was relly useful, as it let me explore the rest of the continent without signing open border treaties with the other civs, as I did not want them colonizing my part of the land mass (they had already explored it, unfortunatly)

That city got turned into another commerce city, which along with every other city but my third (which is the Barracks city) is keeping me up with the leaders in tech. I nabbed alpha first on my continent, and that let me get the Great Library, and the free Great Artist from Music. I also nabbed the Great Lighthouse, just becaise I could Oh, and Notre Dame as well.

As it is, gett the collous first is helping me enourmously in tech, as the extra gold from each coastal tile makes the majority of my cities decent gold producers. The Scientists from the GL (and the extra 2 that I assigned from the library) got me an Acadamy for my Bureaucratic Capital that is now pumping about a third of my economies Commerce, and is on the way for getting me asecond for the Collosus city.

So, Another wonder that can be used to claim land, and help out...gotta make a note of that...

[gentle]

Originally posted by Krill
Gentle, that is an option. Thing is though, it is often a race for the first few religions. An early attempt for any of the first 3 religions is not uncommon, but a civ that aims for SH immediately is much rare, in my experince. It happens alot more often in MP though...

So, if the religions are founded early, you often have to go for them asap, and forget about other techs, whereas SH is right at the base of the tech tree, and requires alot less effort to require.

I'd have thought that doing this with Confucianism is better than with Buddhism/Hinduism/Judaism, though, for the reason stated. Do you find it any different?

Just to make sure I understand what you mean:
a)Trying to get early religions is too committing because one has to leave out other important techs like mining/bronze.
If one goes for mining/bronze first, one doesnt found a religion because someone founded it before.
--> I would say there is no urgent need to found one of the first religions, I also prefer later ones. "Found rels to expand 2nd city radius" needs some luck in single player but it can be done if you choose nice (non-mysticism) AI opponents.
In Multiplayer this might not be an option ^^
Anyway, I dont consider that "full cross" so important that I would put much effort into it. Most often it can wait til Library etc.
b) Stonehenge is easily available, so why not go for it ?
Well, for me it just comes down to question if I want an Engineer or Prophet first.
(btw, except engineers I always...well, 9/10...use GPs for techs)
c) Code of Laws is a topic in itself I think. Some might say its a very important tech, research asap ..caste system just pwns....others might not be able to even approximately tell where it lies in the tech tree.
I think caste system early on is not that good, because one lacks the population to use it, and there is another good alternative. Philosophy is also easy to get.
It is Drama+Buddhism and can be grabbed by Oracle,Prophet and Scientists and it offers the pacifism civic. As I am in love with the Great Library I am "up there in the tree" anyway, so it lies on my way.Research music, music artist researches drama and a scientists then grabs philo (skip music if you want). As in many cases in Civ4 it is a different way in the tree.
Early religions have one point in their favour and that is Organized Religion civic (+25% building prod).
I guess how fast/ which way one wants to take towards Paper/or Gunpowder and does one continue with Liberalism or not is also not uninteresting when it is about considering Code of Laws.

Great People are something that I am still working out. They really give me a headache, that is for sure. So many uses...

I have dealt a lot with GPs lately (that super holy city stuff, see blake's link)
They are awesome, definetely an aspect worth focussing.
In my last few games I produced 7-9 GPs till 1AD. Each worth an Oracle Grab or an instant Wonder. Awesome.
As noted above, I prefer getting techs out of them except for engineers (and maybe but really maybe 1 scientist).
We should open a thread about different research ways and what/when GPs contribute expensive techs =P

[joncnunn]

On the Stone Hidge wonder, it's not worth going after if you are creative. (Consider your traight to be your own permenant mini-SH)

But even when playing a non-creative civ where it is worth while, unless you are industrious you probably can't successfully get it unless you connect your capital to stone early.

[Dominae]

The effects of the Creative trait and Stonehenge stack. Along with some smart city placment, so much Culture is an effective opening land denial strategy (as mentioned by Krill above).

[dacole]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Do you play Pangeas?

Know though I may start..been playing duel on a continental map (only one AI) just to learn about the system before I branch out. Got to where I got that I showed the leadership abilites of Ceaser while I was playing as ceaser actually against the Aztecs, so I branched out and started the AU game going for the same type of victory. I have to say the AI does actually play with each other though I think they automaticly help any other AI you are at war with. Usually I always lead the tech race, but here I fell behind even before the Mongels declared war on me and the Mongels stayed ahead of me even now when they are only down to two cities. I'm amazed. Wether they are "cheating" or the AI is just better it is certainly much more challangeing.