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  • #16
    Well, one of the things in any of the civ games is that the human can come back from an inferior position a whole lot better than any of the AIs can.

    Taking Civ III as an example, on say Demigod+, most humans fall way behind the AI during the later portion of the late Ancient Era, but the better players start to catch up sometime during the early to mid middle ages and fully catch up with the AI during late middle ages to early industrial era, and take a significant lead in the late industrial era.

    So, if your just behind in techs, the most important thing is don't feel defeated. If you feel defeated already, your bound to find a way to lose.

    [Remember that Sun Tzu said victorious commanders win first and then fight while losing commanders fight first and then seek to win.]

    On Specifics, don't attack Musketmen with Horse Archers or even Knights, beeline to Military Tradition and upgrade several Horse Archers to Calvary, and then attack with them.

    On the wonders, first normally you should only be producing at most one world wonder at a time. An exception is if both wonders require something special, say the Hanging Gardens and Colosus, which requires an Aquaduct in one case and a coastal city on the other.

    Next, unless playing an industrious civ, I would recomend avoid attempting to build any world wonder that you don't have the resource that doubles the speed for unless theres a special circumstance (requires a building / your going to chop two or three forest tiles to help it along / you have a large tech lead in that area: read the AI doesn't even have the prereqs for that tech)

    Third, I tend to recomend in any case starting any wonders your interested in very shortly after discovering the tech allowing it, the same turn if possible. [This can be done by timing builds in the desired city and/or placing the current unit or improvemnt it's building on hold]

    Fourth, even if you lose the wonder race, if you don't have Currency yet, the consolation prize isn't all that bad.
    1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
    Templar Science Minister
    AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now.

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    • #17
      I would recommend not building any wonders at all, because you're right...they detract from your focus. Just keep plodding along down the predictable path until you score a victory. Once you do, then pick ONE wonder in each age that you feel would really improve things for you, and build just that. Once you master that piece, consider adding another.

      That way, they're more of a reward than a must have....

      -=Vel=-

      PS: And I know what you mean 'bout reading all the stuff in all the various strat threads and trying to do them all at once.....that will certainly kill your game as well!

      Pick ONE idea for a given game, and beat that horse to DEATH.

      Once you can win with such a singleminded focus, then add something to it, but not before...
      The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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      • #18
        I'd also be curious to hear you describe the ebb and flow of your games...given that you're telling me that they are functionally similar (with differences, of course) to what I outlined above.

        In your estimation then, what's alike, and what's different? That would, I believe, be quite interesting!

        -=Vel=-
        The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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        • #19
          How do you "post a save" here?

          My early game woes with finances were mitigated by previous advice not to expand into so many cities. Now I've just entered renaissance in 3rd place (of the 6 or 7 powers I know), and I'm struggling with techs and wonders. It's been an early game constant war footage for me, but I've held my own and expanded through war. I'd like to settle into as much peace as I can, but I've got to jumpstart the research/production, and I'm not sure what strategies are available and viable in this particular game.

          Helio

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          • #20
            You guys continue to impress me by putting so much time into helping people out. Good job.

            The original poster's game will be vastly improved after reading this thread.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Velociryx
              I'd also be curious to hear you describe the ebb and flow of your games...given that you're telling me that they are functionally similar (with differences, of course) to what I outlined above.

              In your estimation then, what's alike, and what's different? That would, I believe, be quite interesting!

              -=Vel=-
              Well, the start was fairly similar....right after that...not so much. I tended to send settlers out with a warrior escort, but I like your "Hands Across America" approach. I usually tried to pick up an early religion, so our tech choices weren't the same early on.

              I played a game using your technique last night. Worked quite a bit better. I was stuck on one end of a continent pretty much alone, so I had a relatively unobstructed expansion to 6 cities, IIRC. Had to take out two barb towns, and then added another city to back up my Eastern border to a mountain range with a desert on the other side. Across the desert, Peter, Hattie, and farther away Fred.

              I got a little bogged down in the second round of Courthouse-Market building, but I had expected that because I hadn't really wanted 10 cities. (a border with coastal chokepoints seemed like a really good idea, though.) I didn't have copper, but I had like 3 iron and two horses so that was all right. Even had Marble!

              Pulled off a few wonders with no sweat and had Great Scientists keeping me ahead in tech. Pete sets down a town in that desert to pick up incense and a nearby horse. No skin off my nose, I'll happily be an incense customer. Then, Pete goes insane....

              I've got the #1 military...and he attacks my 10th city...which has no special resources at all...isn't culturally competing with his little horse town? So I send my conveniently ready pile of horse archers and whatnot over and raze his two closest cities, then sue for peace. He yields. I'm still pulling way ahead of him in tech. Hattie's keeping pace. She's got a couple-four HUGE cities that are culturally squeezing Pete from the other direction.

              A brief period of piece ensues...I start building universities and teaching my guys the word "bullet". Pete re-founds his little towns. I'm ahead in every dimension, although Hattie is closing on tech. I figure I'll pull away tech after all these professors get jobs.

              Then Pete, insane little monkey that he is....declares war again...his mighty horse archer going paff against my first Cavalry. I'm kinda wondering if Hattie didn't buy him off or something. I'm Taoist, none of them ever sent a Confucian missionary over (though I'd have been happy to see him in my "everyone is angry" phase earlier. I overhaul my production to more cav and catapults...

              The War starts fine. I scrag Pete's horse resource and one town, the other holds out. But then columns of my Cavalry and newly minted Riflemen start ripping the guts out of his empire. However, Pete just won't give up. We get into a routine...

              "Hey, Pete, I've just taken your most recent capitol...and you have no hope of winning...Peace?"
              "Hell, no!"
              rinse, repeat

              Eventually, I've got a 30+ unit pile of extra cavalry, stacks upon stacks of riflemen and cannon...and 5 cities that I really didn't want in the first place (but didn't want Hattie taking the turf). After I've reduced Pete to his single Australia-like colony Smolensk...he finally sees the light and makes peace. My new borders with Hattie and Fred are moving in the wrong directions, tho.'hmmm'

              This, I believe, is where I might have gone wrong. I prolly should have steam-rolled Hattie right there. She would have been tougher than Pete. She had the same military techs as I, but not nearly as many units. However, I was worried about my growing maintenance issues and didn't press the advantage. Especially since Hattie had built Versailles and I had already built the Forbidden Palace back west.

              Instead, I try some consolidation and development. Finish those Universities, start building courthouses and marketplaces in the new Russian acquisitions. I even give one of them to Fred since it was about useless the way it was surrounded by his culture and kept revolting. However, its not long before I get the startling revelation that Hattie is sitting on top of the only OIL in the world. I figure that's not going to bode well.

              I pick a fight with her, raze her two closest cities..which solves that border problem my Russian burgs had. Unfortunately, she has an extremely well-defended Memphis which keeps projecting culture over the Oil. I plop a town next to the Oil...no soap. I've taken away the Oil Well, and have just about completely dominated the War, but there is still Memphis.

              I Marshalled my ever-reliable Cavalry...a dozen or so cannon...and a passal of Marines and assorted sundries. I've got at least 30 units, probably more like 45. She's only got 6 defenders left...so I figure I'm good. She gets lucky...must've been a legendary fight down in Civworld. At the end I've got a pile of ten or so wounded Cav who broke off their attacks...and Memphis has one Machine Gunner at 3.2 strength. On her turn she moves three Infantry into Memphis...I look at the clock and decide its bedtime.

              Not a complete success or victory, but I'm in a winnable position. I'm pretty sure at this point of a few things:

              a) I lacked focus. I would drift from my original priorites too quickly trying to do all things for everyone.

              b) I had over-valued a great many wonders. This game I only did a wonder if it looked really quick and I was fairly confident of getting it done. Still dropped a few to Hattie...but hey, its gotta be interesting doesn't it?

              c) I used to over-expand a bit early on. Stopping at four cites, then expanding makes a huge difference. I used to stop at 6, then do the round of courthouses-marketplaces. But that expansion time loses too much tech+military development to your poverty until they are built. Unfortunately, this loss remains hidden until later..making it hard to detect.

              I have a few other nit-picky suspicions, but I'll have to play a few more times to work them out. Thanks again!

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              • #22
                Holy crap people. Go write a book. Seriously, there's money to be made...
                Killing is fun in pixels, isn't it?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by JohnUghrin
                  Then Pete, insane little monkey that he is....declares war again...his mighty horse archer going paff against my first Cavalry.
                  What you should have done, I think, is to send Pete to war against Hattie. That's what I am doing in my current game. I pitted Alex against Isa, and Kublai against Hattie.

                  BTW, did you use any seige weapons in your attacks? I hope you did, at least against Memphis.
                  (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
                  (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
                  (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Velociryx
                    While you are at war, DO NOTHING BUT BUILD TROOPS from all your cities. No matter how tempted you might be to build other stuff, avoid that temptation. Stay focused and build troops. No telling what surprises await you, and you're better off being prepared, so build troops!
                    Two caveats:

                    1) If you are waaaay bigger than your victim already (midgame assaults) do not neglect infrastructure in your low hammer, high commerce production cities tending to lag in this area. If the pre-war city balance is 20 v. 6 in your favor, full-on unit spam after you pick the fight will suck the treasury dry faster than you can replenish it through conquest. Make sure to get your Markets and Grocers (and Banks) up!

                    2) If you are not losing units, try not to outbuild your unit supply too greatly in the Ancient going, or the maintenance will devour you. Eventually you will reach a point when you have to stop spamming units and start doing something about the treasury drain...you'll know you've gotten there when your research grinds to a crawl and you are still losing money about as fast as you gain it from looting cities. This tends to be more of a problem the larger your empire was before you started the war (stealing early barb citites exacerbates this). Distance from the Palace of the victim matters as well...the gains from smacking a comparatively distant opponent are often greater in terms of the additional land area you are able to settle after the war, but you pay for this with your research during and even after the war is done.

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                    • #25
                      I think the way you play is more like the "Deep Blue of Civilization." Trying to figure out the absolute best way for every situation is almost impossible, in my opinion. There's just too many factors to take in and it's so overwhelming that it might bring your morale down when you're playing a game.

                      I mean, there are basics that everyone should learn, but general tips and strategies are really all you need and the rest is up to improvisation.

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                      • #26
                        'morning John! Sounds like your game took a turn for the better!

                        In looking at the description of your game, here's what I think:

                        * Sounds like you had no sweat building some wonders AND keeping pace with other stuff, so your early game focus was spot on (if it hadn't been, you would have had a hard time when Pete attacked later).

                        * Likewise, sounds like you maintained your focus during the courthouse building spree....it just took a little longer on account of having more cities than you planned for (which happens, and it sounds like you came out of it well).

                        * War with Pete came out well, although in light of what you learned later (oil), I think the best play may have been to gift at least one of those Russian cities to the Germans for a relational boost, and get them involved in assisting vs. Egypt (making sure that you got the oil city, of course!)

                        With regards to the fight for Memphis....at this point, the die is cast...about the only thing you can do is rebuild quickly and hit her again, this time, with even more. I would definitely upgrade those cannon to arty, and lead off with 3-4 of them for the collateral damage against the pesky city (especially in the face of a big defeat at the gates like that). If you're not running it already, switch to nationalism and draft three units per turn for a while, and also switch to the civic that lets you rush buy for cash (it's 6:30am here, and my brain's not working so good yet...forgot the name!), turn off research for about three turns, set all cities to building the best troops you got, and get back in the fight.

                        If you need guys sooner than that, and assuming you have properly garrisoned cities, then take one garrison from each city and get them in the field. It will provide a temporary "covering stack" to give you a field presence until you get your forces built back up (and this is one of those cases where you would be well-served to start building troops and KEEP building troops til the fight is done...if you have another Memphis, and are busy building infrastructure, it'll be harder to recover from the second time, harder still the third, and prolly impossible the fourth.

                        -=Vel=-
                        The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Velociryx
                          'morning John! Sounds like your game took a turn for the better!

                          In looking at the description of your game, here's what I think:

                          * Sounds like you had no sweat building some wonders AND keeping pace with other stuff, so your early game focus was spot on (if it hadn't been, you would have had a hard time when Pete attacked later).

                          * Likewise, sounds like you maintained your focus during the courthouse building spree....it just took a little longer on account of having more cities than you planned for (which happens, and it sounds like you came out of it well).

                          * War with Pete came out well, although in light of what you learned later (oil), I think the best play may have been to gift at least one of those Russian cities to the Germans for a relational boost, and get them involved in assisting vs. Egypt (making sure that you got the oil city, of course!)
                          Tried that, but Fred and Hattie were religious and trade chums from the dawn of time. I didn't make much headway..."Declare War on Hatshepsut" option stayed red. Although Fred may be planning something on his own. He's Confucian, but he's been spreading Christianity down in my cities like a man possessed. Go figure...just gives me more cultural improvements to build.

                          Originally posted by Velociryx
                          With regards to the fight for Memphis....at this point, the die is cast...about the only thing you can do is rebuild quickly and hit her again, this time, with even more. I would definitely upgrade those cannon to arty, and lead ...
                          Yeah, it was a bit stunning, but its got to happen every once in a while. I will say this version of Civ doesn't have me screaming at the machine over unrealistic combat results as often as previous versions. Even in the real world we have historical examples of stunning military upsets.

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                          • #28
                            No doubt about it! (as a few hundred Spartans in a rugged mountain pass can attest to!)

                            Get back on the horse, and try it again! Persistence will prevail!

                            -=Vel=-
                            The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Velociryx
                              No doubt about it! (as a few hundred Spartans in a rugged mountain pass can attest to!)

                              Get back on the horse, and try it again! Persistence will prevail!

                              -=Vel=-
                              Ended up winning that one. Second time around I sent a medium-sized force of Cavalry and Infantry roaming around Hattie's lands chewing up improvements and resources. (Still defending the undeveloped oil.) Then a big stack o' arty KO'd the defenses at Memphis...I just burned it.

                              That prompted Fred to jump in. Ended up scorching the rest of my continent. Do a look around (since its 1946) and figure out the best path to victory: There's another continent with the rest of the Civs on it...but they just figured out gunpowder. Musketmen do not fair well against tanks and air support. Half way through Mansa Musa, I win...I think it was sometime in the late '90s.

                              Not my personal favorite path to victory, but it works.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Urban Ranger


                                What you should have done, I think, is to send Pete to war against Hattie. That's what I am doing in my current game. I pitted Alex against Isa, and Kublai against Hattie.

                                BTW, did you use any seige weapons in your attacks? I hope you did, at least against Memphis.
                                Pete was pretty far behind Hattie and myself. Which was one reason I was surprised to see him attack me. I'm certainly not above paying off other civs to go to war.

                                Re: Siege weapons, yes. I had some cannon at first. They didn't seem to quite do the trick.

                                I didn't have any trouble with the "tactical" aspects of the game. I was just having trouble with the overall management aspects. I'd always find myself getting slowly but inexoribly outpaced by the AI in one arena or the other. It was very frustrating, because it was all but impossible to understand why.

                                Velociryx' directions pointed out a couple of things to me. I've got a very solid early game now. (I think, anyway) I'm still fiddling with my midgame. I always seem to rocket right past the middle ages techwise and find myself scrambling to build improvements and building and units fast enough to keep up with myself. Still experimenting with civics in this regard, and I suspect I'm a little to enamoured of chop-rushing early on.

                                Anyway, I think the heart of the matter is that its really easy to hide the fact that I'm getting bogged down from myself. So I'm looking to figure out how to avoid it.

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