Interface Woes: Extorting Tech from AI

[joncnunn]

Originally posted by John-SJ
...bring you into the next age or pound you back into the previous one! Hehe!

Or the pound the AI back into the previous age the turn after they brought you into the next age.

[Bluefusion]

But many times I've had demands that weren't in Red, yet no matter what I did the AI would never acquiesce to the demand.

For instance, Mansa Musa was #1 and I was #2, and we were pals. I could ask him to declare war on any other AI, yet there was no way I could ever get him to accept. I could give him nothing in fair trade, nor would he declare war as a favor. (I wanted him to war with another AI so I could attack him from the opposite side)

Doesn't "redding" out demands defeat the definition of a demand itself? The entire purpose of a demand is to get something for nothing that the AI would never otherwise give--in effect anything you demand should be "redded" out to begin with.

Redding out certain demands just tells you how much of a panzy or not a certain AI is as respects to your military strength...Something you should never be able to ascertain anyway.

[Bhruic]

Originally posted by Bluefusion
For instance, Mansa Musa was #1 and I was #2, and we were pals. I could ask him to declare war on any other AI, yet there was no way I could ever get him to accept. I could give him nothing in fair trade, nor would he declare war as a favor. (I wanted him to war with another AI so I could attack him from the opposite side)

But that's a different issue. The fact that an AI is willing to trade something doesn't automatically mean that you have something that it will trade for.

Doesn't "redding" out demands defeat the definition of a demand itself? The entire purpose of a demand is to get something for nothing that the AI would never otherwise give--in effect anything you demand should be "redded" out to begin with.

Well, that's why I do have a bit of a problem with the system. Some of the 'excuses' don't seem to make much sense. For example, I can see why the AI would refuse to give up a new tech that has a Wonder that it's building. That makes sense. But when I want to demand something, and the 'excuse' for it being red is 'We just don't like you enough', I find it pretty annoying. I mean, I'm not asking you to like me, I'm asking you to be afraid of me.

Things in red should be things the AI is categorically unwilling to give up, not things that the AI just doesn't feel like giving to you.

Bh

[baboon]

Originally posted by alexman
As Bhruic said, the items in red mean that the AI's answer is "NO" to anything that has to do with giving up those items, including demanding them as tribute.

So the current way it works actually saves you some trouble because you don't even have to put the items on the table and ask for them. It saves you a step.

That's true, but the AI tends to have almost every tech in red everytime. So it still isn't functioning, you can't even demand a tech from a foe you complety destroyed since they will say 'no' anyway.

[Arrian]

On the flip side, in my most recent game, I've gotten two techs from good friends (I had to ask nicely, but they coughed 'em up - Drama and something else... Theology?). Granted, these AIs were "Friendly" because I'd converted them to my religion (totally - every city) and we'd been at peace with good trading relations forever.

In my experience, they're just not going to give you anything shiny and new. If it's been around a while, though, you can pick it up as "help from your friends." As for demands... I guess you gotta be on good enough terms with them for them to consider trading the tech to you, but have enough of a power advantage that they're scared of you. Tricky.

-Arrian

[Cort Haus]

I had noticed a tech jumping into the 'tradeable' column when an AI civ was ready to quit a war with me, possibly trading the tech for peace. Perhaps you have to beat the tech onto the table.

[baboon]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I had noticed a tech jumping into the 'tradeable' column when an AI civ was ready to quit a war with me, possibly trading the tech for peace. Perhaps you have to beat the tech onto the table.

Yeah but try to make peace first and ask later about the tech, it will be red for sure. It's only white because the AI is not unwilling to trade it for peace (although that isn't happening either probably, you were just closer to getting it).

[MotownDennis]

This whole thing annoys me too and should be fixed in a future patch.

1) I should be able to demand anything, whether or not the AI is willing to trade it. It can be in red, but still allow me to move it to the trading table. Sometimes I want the diplomatic hit for "making an arrogant demand".

2) The AI should demand things from other AIs in the same way it does with humans to even up the diplomatic penalties.

By the way, Mansa Musa will NEVER agree to declare war on someone, whether you ask for it as a favor or offer him 17 techs to do it (in my experience anyway). I think it's just part of his personality.

[Arrian]

Mansa is definitely a "builder" style leader. He's spiritual/financial with a defensive unique unit... he kinda should be that way, I figure.

-Arrian

[Yosh]

In my experience, Hatsheput is "The Diplomator" of the AI personalities -- if she likes you, she'll generally give up things to you for free, if you just ask.

Example, Bonaparte declared war on me (not unexpected - it is, after all, Napoleon!); I was able to resist his offensive, but was not prepared for a counter-attack of my own, having just gotten out of a war with Victoria. Catherine, that opportunistic witch of a lady, declared war on me from the other front, and I decided it was time to even the odds.

I dialed up Hatsheput and asked her to declare war on Napoleon as a favor, and to my surprise, she immediately agreed! This is despite the fact that Napoleon had more troops than either me or Hatty, and that we were all the same religion; as far as I can tell, there were no mitigating penalties in relations between Hat and Napoleon.

My guess is that since I was in first, and Hat in second, her personality is to suck up to the person in first, even to the point where it will hurt her in the short run (she lost at least one city to Napoleon).

Bottom line is that although you can make general assumptions about AI behavior in Civ IV, don't make the mistake of assuming you'll know how they will behave in every situation!

[Bobby Chicken]

the thing that annoys me about diplomacy is that they get really, really mad when you trade with their enemies. I mean, don't you trade with YOUR enemies all the time.

[Bluefusion]

What really ticks me off, is I find it nearly impossible to get any AI to really like me once they find me annoying.

For instance, I needed aluminum from Washington to get the halve production on some of the SS parts. He was so technologically behind (he was always in a war) that I offered to give him fascism, medicine, and mass media. After that he still wasn't even friendly enough to give me open borders!

Yet... if someone makes a demand of you and you cave in, they sometimes go straight from annoyed to pleased. I find that very unbalanced. It's almost like I'm waiting for certain AIs to make a demand of me if I need better diplomatic relations.

[Arrian]

It does sometimes feel like that, doesn't it? I don't find it that problematic, but sometimes I do feel like there is little I can do (proactively) to improve relations.

There are some options, but they tend to be extreme and/or not available until late in the game:

Civics. You can switch to the target civ's "favored" civic, which will give you a diplo boost. Free Religion also really helps (although it will remove the +'s you get from your fellow believers).

But yeah, the most effective thing seems to be caving into a demand (or granting a request).

-Arrian

[LDiCesare]

I don't have much of a problem with the ai hating me for little reason, but I'd really like the diplomacy to allow exchanging tech for resources, to be able to be bribed to go into war (you can bribe the ai to go to war, but can't offer war in exchange of a tech for instance).

[ghen]

blocking trades is stupid. I should be able to trade my entire empire of cities for any tech. There's always a price where everything becomes tradeable.