Vel's Strategy Thread, Volume II

[Eggolas]

General Orders

Herr General,

Your most recent communication cleared the air and restored our aura of military superiority. The general staff agreed to implement the original battle plan against Khan, knowing that complete subjugation of his empire was unlikely, but that we might be able to achieve some more breathing space and significantly hurt a potential adversary before he got too strong.

The cavalry officers refused to move their troops without sufficient support from siege weapons and melee forces, so a combined forces attack was arranged after a brief build up of siege weaponry and retraining of our glorious Praetorian legions to use the new maces we forged.

In a coordinated lighting strike, Tabriz to the West and Keb . . . something fell with Old Serai following quickly to the North and Northwest. Then it was that our cavalry corps demanded the right to attack the Tarfun castle with naught but catapults for support.

The general staff acquiesced and Casius lead his glorious corps to victory with the loss of only one battalion and one catapult.

After taking four of Khan's major cities, our next course of action has once again divided the general staff.

The cavalry corps wants to strike for Karakorum and remove Khan as a real threat for some time. The foot soldiers believe that we must consolidate and rest the troops. The senate fears the looming presence of Manny and worries that the newly acquired city of Tabriz might not be able to withstand his cultural pressure and might defect to his empire. Peter of course is now directly to our east (of Tarfun) and we are attempting to maintain peaceful relations with him.

Thus far, our glorious cavalry rules the battlefield and our intelligence tells us that no one else has the ability to train a shock corps at the present time. That will change soon enough I fear. However, our leaders assure us that soon enough, we will have developed a new gunpowder that will permit our foot soldiers to attack and defend with great ferocity while maintaining their ability to use terrain to great advantage.

In closing, let me assure you that the general staff values highly your review of our plans and I remain,

Your faithful servant,


Julius "Good Luck" Caesar

[Generaldoktor]

Your game reports are interesting, particularly since I don't play on Monarch much. There was formerly much other activity on this thread though and I'm kind of wondering where everybody else went , unless they finished the discussion and this thread is ready to close. If it does close, you can start your own thread, I think there is a special area for game stories.

As I suspected, when it comes to offensive operations, AI looks worse than its real bite, unless they can gang up on you or have a sizable tech lead.

You need to decide if there's anything in Tabriz you really want; again, I didn't download the map because it irritates my protection software when I do that, but if it's in danger of cultural swallowing from Mansa, who you fear anyway; and also is close to the slumbering, but maybe not forever, Peter; you can gift the city to Mansa and maybe shorten your shared border with Peter too. If the Mongols have no friends and the place had little value, you maybe should have razed the d-mn thing and let "Manny" build his own burg there, he'd have liked the gift either way. Since you already have it, it's too late for razing; I'm not sure if you can "abandon" cities in Civ4, I've never done it, but you could check into it, if necessary.

If you need it, you can win a culture war, especially if you only have this one area of contention, by putting major resources into it. Try to get universal suffrage, you can't be far from there on the tech tree; and cash buy a bunch of cultural improvements, maybe with the help of a Great Merchant's sojourn. And/or you can explode a culture bomb there from a Great Artist. If you don't know how to channel GP generation yet, Couerdelion did a great thread on it earlier in the year that's probably still on file; I think there's some hints earlier on this strategy thread too.

I see little value to letting the Mongols live. They are going to be p/o'd at you the rest of the game now that you've taken that many cities and worse if you take their capital, (presumably Karokorum.) If you've got what you want out of them and/or can't chew up the rest rapidly, go ahead and invite some of these other big boys into your war. The positive leap in relations will buy you more time to consolidate your recent gains.

This "rest the foot soldiers" thing sits odd with me too. Your pre-war cities should be churning out new ones and there is a tactic called "pillage" if you can't directly take a city right away, that works very well with lots of cavalry. (You also get gold from this. ) Of course, if you do go on to take the remaining enemy citadels, you'll have to repair the countryside later, but presumably by now, you have a decent supply of workers and are capturing more. In the meantime, raping the Mongols resources around the cities will prevent counterattack.

[Verrucosus]

Whether and when to attack someone is a decision I agonize over in almost every game. It's very difficult to say anything on this topic "in general", so I find it very helpful to read these discussions in the context of a specific (and well-presented) game situation.

Given the brain-storming character of this thread I hope I'm permitted to go back to the topic of early-game research. I believe it was the prevailing opinion in this thread and its predecessor that if there is such a thing as a key tech in the early game it would be Bronze Working, mainly because it allows to chop forests. Is there still a consensus on this after the changes introduced by the most recent patch or have these changes (chopping less efficient before Mathematics, Slavery requires upkeep) been significant enough to remove Bronze Working from its dominant position in early science strategy?

[The Morrigu]

Sorry bit late on this, but in response to the comments about SP vs MP.

Come now guys, the AI is still dumb, and still predictable, you play the game waiting for it to do the inevitable and thus are prepared for it.

SP's a good challenge particularly on the higher levels, but not because your being challenged strategically or diplomatically, really your just refining building techniques and allowing for the inevitable AI behaviour.

Yes SP is a challenge, but IMO, MP keeps you guessing, on your toes and allows for surprises and just damn inspired play from the oposition. And what about team games 5v5's, a real sporting event there, a good dialogue and an avenue to improve both your singles games and team games. You can't have a discussion about the finer points of trashing some other players civ in SP either. And you can't use mind games and lies to weedle wins. Like you can in non cton games. Mini Epics/Epics are the mans game in MP, same game more scope.

If you think your good at SP and you can beat the AI on the higest levels, step up to the real world, where some clever players'll hand you your ass and then usually have the decency to tell you how they did it. IMO it's the difference beween patience and bridge. The human element beats the AI element for richness of gaming experience and diversity.

Here ends the partly political broadcast for the MP Party.

[Eggolas]

Herr General,

War and unpredictability continue to go together. As our forces captured the Mongol capitol and proceeded to eliminate its remaining cities, an unusual diplomatic event occurred that had important ramifications.

Apparently, our enemy Napoleon immediately controlled a narrow corridor when we razed a Mongol city, such that we were now in French territory. By longstanding agreement with France, we were required to remove our troops with all due speed. Some bureaucrat in Rome decided that we should move east, when we needed to move West!

The result was that we had to use Malinese lands to reach the last two Mongol cities. After razing one, we lacked enough healed troops and retreated briefly to heal our wounds and restock.

As we reformed and pressed the attack, Peter of Russia declared war on us and sent several Cossacks at Karakorum.

While our heaviliy promoted Riflemen were able to parry the threat and limit the pillaging and our cavalry retreated magnificently (without eliminating the last Mongol city), our far eastern flank comprising of Kyoto and Satsuma were somewhat understaffed. Sure enough, Peter had sent his missionaries on a scouting mission earlier and proceeded to send a fleet of troops to take those cities.

A beautifully feigned move towards the north, left our cities to the east vulnerable as we had shifted troops to deal with the northern threat while our forces in Mongolian lands sped back home.

I would like to tell you more of our strategies, but apparently my services are no longer needed by the Roman government. In fact, Catherine has hired me to coordinate a similar situation in which she finds herself confined to the southern part of the continent (after defeating and capturing four Chinese cities) and facing Bismark and Victoria to the west, Manny to the north and Egypt to the east.

Macemen are the temporary advantage on the field, facing only archers and skirmishers, with an occasional axeman. But .... who to attack and certainly not all at once.

.....

One other question. I can trade Music and Alphabet for a slew of gold and some techs I don't currently have (including drama and horseback riding). What do you think?

[CanuckSoldier]

Originally posted by tommynt


I m up to get challenged in ironman.
I have seen people moving faster as me - i know 2 guys being able to build much bigger stacks as rest of players i know. I might sometimes not fight too clever and lack of defence.
But i have very rarly seen some1 leading both gold and production in grpahs to me. I remember this ren game where i killed one fast and had to defend front allone vs 3 of other team after as all others were hit and slowed down that badly. U just need good production for that.

otherwise thx for your great additions ellestar and elledge - maybe some of apolyton guys have a look into civ4 lobby and join the ladder
- I might be even up to try a game with allways peace on

I just had a fun game with always peace, we played it with 2 city elim on. Now you wouldn't think that would matter, but guess what I flipped two of my neigbours cities and bang he was dead :P I had 3 religions, and tonnes of cultural buildings and wonders and used 3 Great Artist Culture Bombs on him. What made it even sweeter was he was the points leader :P And yes this was a ladder game!

CS

[matthew_mccabe]

hehe

that's hilarious

[Addled Platypus]

submitting the 54 pages (202kb) of guide to Vel for final approval

[Elledge]

Originally posted by CanuckSoldier


I just had a fun game with always peace, we played it with 2 city elim on. Now you wouldn't think that would matter, but guess what I flipped two of my neigbours cities and bang he was dead :P I had 3 religions, and tonnes of cultural buildings and wonders and used 3 Great Artist Culture Bombs on him. What made it even sweeter was he was the points leader :P And yes this was a ladder game!

CS

Who plays always peace ladder games?!? I want in on this!!!

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by Eggolas
Herr General,

War and unpredictability continue to go together. As our forces captured the Mongol capitol and proceeded to eliminate its remaining cities, an unusual diplomatic event occurred that had important ramifications...

As we reformed and pressed the attack, Peter of Russia declared war on us and sent several Cossacks at Karakorum.

While our heaviliy promoted Riflemen were able to parry the threat and limit the pillaging and our cavalry retreated magnificently (without eliminating the last Mongol city), our far eastern flank comprising of Kyoto and Satsuma were somewhat understaffed. Sure enough, Peter had sent his missionaries on a scouting mission earlier and proceeded to send a fleet of troops to take those cities.

A beautifully feigned move towards the north, left our cities to the east vulnerable as we had shifted troops to deal with the northern threat while our forces in Mongolian lands sped back home.

I would like to tell you more of our strategies, but apparently my services are no longer needed by the Roman government. In fact, Catherine has hired me to coordinate a similar situation in which she finds herself confined to the southern part of the continent (after defeating and capturing four Chinese cities) and facing Bismark and Victoria to the west, Manny to the north and Egypt to the east.

Macemen are the temporary advantage on the field, facing only archers and skirmishers, with an occasional axeman. But .... who to attack and certainly not all at once.

.....

One other question. I can trade Music and Alphabet for a slew of gold and some techs I don't currently have (including drama and horseback riding). What do you think?

I have been out of town, but to answer your last question first, I would normally take that trade, but I don't usually play at Monarch; Music leads directly to cavalry and Alphabet leads to Writing, which gives every AI what every other one has since they all shamelessly trade with each other. Think carefully, there is no one "right" answer.

Sorry that it looks like you abandoned the game as Caesar after Russia took you apart. This is the joy of playing on the higher levels. Hopefully you learned something that will help your next game. Monarch is difficult not only for the penalities on you and the usual AI tech advantage, but also for their heightened aggressiveness. I don't know the answer for being attacked by several at once, but know it is not always "attack," despite the famous Napoleonic wisdom on the subject. I have beat many AI by just waiting for their attack and responding cagily and suspect I could do this for live players too. (Also, for the guy last week who once again stood up for MP play, I say maybe someday, but sometimes it feels good to just win easy and that's why we have AI.)

Looking again at your game as Caesar; and beyond, you have to see if you are maximizing military production when facing all these foes. On numerous occasions, when a new threat arose on another side of my empire, I was able to quickly build a new army and/or reroute reinforcements in the pipeline. There's something wrong if you're instantly losing games (the gist I get out of your final experience with Caesar vs. Peter,) due to this. You should look at not to overcommit more than what you need to finish somebody either; and what about your road net, or railroads, if you are near that on the tech tree? Workers should not stay home in war; I put mine almost in the front line to produce that needed infrastructure and if I lose a few, tough , I'll capture them back later anyway. But I always have "lots" of workers.

For the guy who asked about early game research, bronze-working also leads to metal-casting and forges; and iron-working; it's really hard to beat chop or no chop. I left town right after downloading v. 161 and my laptop won't take Civ4, so I haven't been able to assuage the full effects; I am considering prioritizing mathematics more to get the chop back, but the exact tech order for my "Math Slingshot" I have yet to determine. To play is to learn.

[tommynt]

now it s not bronze 1. imo (maybe with spi civs and slave worker fast - but slave was weakened aswell) - now it s work your food res right away (worker 1. imorved in power as u get him faster) - work 1 or 2 other res and get another worker - instead 3 workers - 1 fast and a 2nd after should do the trick - then either fast oracle for math - hard without marble and imposible without indu)
or pot and some fast cottages (u worked food res right away to have a decent size to use your bonus tiles AND some cottages) after that chop 1 settler and work land at 2nd city. be ready to fnish chops right when u got math for another worker and settler.

the time in bewteen pot and having math can be used to build granny and lib in peace game or wonder with res and some high prd tiles or units in wargames - but dont forget to skyrocketexpand right after math by choping workers and settler (together with big city size and should get em superfast)

[zerza]

I think the preference boils down to control. In single player, there are NO random variables to worry about, the player is pretty much the "GOD" of the game, and chooses the path of history themselves. They are in complete control, and as such prefer "sandbox" style of playing. I played years of single player so I know.

In multiplayer there is much more chaos, no player is really the GOD of the game, and each player tries to meek out history the best they can with their given abilities and land. It gives each age MUCH more depth, and employs the tactics of warfare the designers meant for every unit. No longer skipping through the first few ages in a blur on a mad quest for reckless expansion. IMHO its singleplayer that breaks CIV down into its most barest components.

SP CIV totally takes out the need for defense, as the player dictates who is the enemy, as GOD of world events. To be able to build a thriving civilization in the face of unkown variables and sworn enemies (much like in real life, every civilization was built facing fierce enemies and things they DID NOT control) Never was a civilization built that didn't face warfare. Its this removal of uncontrolled warfare that makes single player a diluted watered down version of the real game.


I've read several times that MP is just about rushing. This is one example of how MP takes more skills. A rush is easily stopped, as this is a builders game to be sure, not an attackers. Take the civver out of the "sandbox" and into real life, where they DONT have total control of the game, and this is where the real civvers stand up. To say "Ya, I built this wonder and this one", or to say "ya, I built 2 wonders and fought off a sneak attack that had my heart pounding". The masters say the latter.

Diplomacy, even off is much more intricate as well in MP then single player. To intimidate an enemy by use of a heavy defense, to "vassalize" an enemy by use of pillaging, to "ally" an enemy by implication of another players very high score. Its all there, but very subtle. Playing the players is a skill to be sure, and much more complex then tossing 10 gold to an AI to keep em happy so as to ecowhore more without threat

[zerza]

Originally posted by tommynt
now it s not bronze 1. imo (maybe with spi civs and slave worker fast - but slave was weakened aswell) - now it s work your food res right away (worker 1. imorved in power as u get him faster) - work 1 or 2 other res and get another worker - instead 3 workers - 1 fast and a 2nd after should do the trick - then either fast oracle for math - hard without marble and imposible without indu)
or pot and some fast cottages (u worked food res right away to have a decent size to use your bonus tiles AND some cottages) after that chop 1 settler and work land at 2nd city. be ready to fnish chops right when u got math for another worker and settler.

the time in bewteen pot and having math can be used to build granny and lib in peace game or wonder with res and some high prd tiles or units in wargames - but dont forget to skyrocketexpand right after math by choping workers and settler (together with big city size and should get em superfast)

I largely agree, depends on land. If I spy lux around I'll do this exactly, if not I'll strive for a religion in there. Bronze is still important early as you may have a source near you to hook early and send a few axemen to "vassalize" a neighbor

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by zerza
I think the preference boils down to control. In single player, there are NO random variables to worry about, the player is pretty much the "GOD" of the game, and chooses the path of history themselves. They are in complete control, and as such prefer "sandbox" style of playing. I played years of single player so I know.

In multiplayer there is much more chaos, no player is really the GOD of the game, and each player tries to meek out history the best they can with their given abilities and land. It gives each age MUCH more depth, and employs the tactics of warfare the designers meant for every unit. No longer skipping through the first few ages in a blur on a mad quest for reckless expansion. IMHO its singleplayer that breaks CIV down into its most barest components.

SP CIV totally takes out the need for defense, as the player dictates who is the enemy, as GOD of world events. To be able to build a thriving civilization in the face of unkown variables and sworn enemies (much like in real life, every civilization was built facing fierce enemies and things they DID NOT control) Never was a civilization built that didn't face warfare. Its this removal of uncontrolled warfare that makes single player a diluted watered down version of the real game.


I've read several times that MP is just about rushing. This is one example of how MP takes more skills. A rush is easily stopped, as this is a builders game to be sure, not an attackers. Take the civver out of the "sandbox" and into real life, where they DONT have total control of the game, and this is where the real civvers stand up. To say "Ya, I built this wonder and this one", or to say "ya, I built 2 wonders and fought off a sneak attack that had my heart pounding". The masters say the latter.

Diplomacy, even off is much more intricate as well in MP then single player. To intimidate an enemy by use of a heavy defense, to "vassalize" an enemy by use of pillaging, to "ally" an enemy by implication of another players very high score. Its all there, but very subtle. Playing the players is a skill to be sure, and much more complex then tossing 10 gold to an AI to keep em happy so as to ecowhore more without threat

Of course, earlier in the thread this view was disputed in considerable detail, by the author of the thread, in fact, who is considered something of an authority. But for my two cents, it just appears that sh-t is flying just too fast in these MP games, particularly with the near-universal insistence on "real time" speed, to give much thought to "variables," however many there may potentially be. The argument made earlier that the "dog eat dog" mentality of groups of real human players reduces "diplomacy" to blunt force ploys for intimidation or survival carries weight with me too, keeping me out of multi-player myself and also repudiating your not too subtle suggestion that the MP player is some form of superior mentality.

The new "raging barbarians," which makes early SP games very difficult, the numerous higher levels of difficulty added and the accompanying harsher penalties restricting growth in Civ4 provide challenge enough for me. I can play when and as much as I want; from that standpoint I like the control you allude to in SP, but certainly don't believe that I control the game from Minute One. Sometimes I just like to win, to sate my own ego, if you will; but I have lost at SP, particularly in this new version and do not consider myself a dummy for doing so. I learned from my mistakes. Whether I could learn better from MP is very debatable, but right now at least, the SP game style fits best into my lifestyle.

The one thing that is definitely not going to happen is for me to stop recording here my observations about the game, because of intimidation by or exaggerated deference to, MP players, who themselves only see certain facets of the game due to the nature of play.

[zerza]

The authority you mention claimed it requires fewer skills to succeed at MP, unfortunately his views seem to stem from his inability to adapt his strategy to fit another environment. I personally feel a true authority on the subject of civ can play civ in ALL its many faces. An SP authority perhaps, but definately not a CIV authority.

My post was in no way meant to intimidate, only to defend the falsity that MP requires fewer skills, when in fact it requires much more skill. The ability to think fast (almost auto pilot fast), the ability to manage resources (much less crucial in SP, where it may just cost a wonder, in MP it can cost a city ) , and the ability to balance military with civilization so as to stay alive and attain the highest score.