Expansion Pack idea: Pandemics.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
And please, no bloody lawyers suing cities I'm sure if a lawyer walked into 16th century Tenochtitlan threatening lawsuits, his heart would end up on a steaming pile of them so quick...

Soviet Russia and a few other more modern governments wouldn't be so different.

-Drachasor

[Sleestax]

Originally posted by Son of David
*cough*

This was actually included in Call to Power II. If a disease broke out in one of your cities it had a chance to spread to cities connected to that city via trade routes.

Doh! I must have been remembering it then with some fondness. I still think Civ2 CTP was the best civ ever. However, I think the new civics could make it interesting. For example, your trading partner breaks-out with a smallpox pandemic, so you switch your civics to mercantilism or close your border or.. etc...

Also, there could be things that prevent the pandemics. Like doctor specialists in cities starting in the middle ages, hospitals, etc... Even a new wonder, the "CDC".

So yes - Firaxis should revisit CTP2 and take away a few more good ideas for the expansion: pandemics, civil wars, and more unconventional warfare units.

[Son of David]

If I remember aright, pandemics in CTP2 were only caused by spies or other 'unconventional' units first placing a disease in a city.

People who don't have the sufficient marbles to cope with unconventional warfare should, of course, have an option to turn that off so that they can focus on what's easiest for them.

[Tattila the Hun]

Originally posted by Hobelhouse
Sounds like a good idea... maybe even a 'start pandemic' spy mission.

Not good idea, if you happen share the same, hum, globe...

Maybe just before Space Race victory.

[petermarkab]

Originally posted by Son of David
*cough*

Hmm, I think this forum could soon be infected with the bird-flu pandemic. Better stop posting here!

[Son of David]

Originally posted by John-SJ
Imagine every few hours, or every couple of games, I come by, take your seat at the computer, go into debug mode (I have no idea if these features actually exist), sell off a few improvemtns in each city, reduce the combined population of your top 5 cities from 75 to 20, and and wreak other major and minor havoc as I see fit. Then I leave debug mode, give you your seat back, and leave with the wish, "Have fun!".

Some may consider this a fun idea, I however, do not.

Things like pandemics make a game into more of a simulation, which Civ is not.

IMO, leave the pandemics out, please.

I see the point that's being made here. But imagine if all they did for an expansion is add a few more civs, more buildings, and make a few gameplay tweak deemed slightly too important for a patch! Boring! The expansions for Civ3 were like that - the only major changes these made were to the corruption system, which was left (dumped unceremoniously) in Conquests which Firaxis didn't even bother to patch properly.

But Civ4 has FIXED corruption and added in various buildings/wonders/civics that handle it.

If the XP ONLY contains units, buildings, civs - i.e. more of the same - it will be a waste of time! It needs new things, new innovations, to make it more interesting. What a waste not to build on the excellent Civ4 engine and make an even better game!

[John-SJ]

I agree that we need to have new things in an expansion beyond new civs and a few new units.

I like things with a challenge.

To me, having my ancient age population cut by half by some arbitrary computer algorithm is not a challenge, even if it is called a pandemic. (of course, pandemics might be handled differently so that they are challenging, see my next point)

On the other hand, if there is a threat presented that I can do something about, that is a challenge. I either meet the threat and avoid the consequences or I don't, but at least I had the chance. Or maybe I do a better or worse job of lessening the consequences based on my performance.

So, whatever the CIV expansion contains, I hope there are some new challenges, fun challenges!

[vee4473]

Originally posted by TheArsenal
This is something I really like in theory but would probably make me punch my monitor in practice.

exactly

[Willem]

Originally posted by John-SJ
To me, having my ancient age population cut by half by some arbitrary computer algorithm is not a challenge, even if it is called a pandemic. (of course, pandemics might be handled differently so that they are challenging, see my next point)

But it doesn't have to be arbitrary nor does it have to mean you lose half your population. In Civ 3, the Black Death only resulted in a few units/citizens lost. And in Civ 4, we have health as a city factor. Look after your people and you could be spared from the pandemic. And certain advances could lead to other measures for combatting it, like a Pharmaceuticals Plant improvement with Chemistry that produces medicines. We could even have a medicine strategic resource in order to control the outbreaks.

Disease has been an important factor in the development of modern civilization. It was smallpox for instance that decimated the Aztecs and the other North American cultures. I think it should have some place in the game.

[Son of David]

Originally posted by John-SJ
On the other hand, if there is a threat presented that I can do something about, that is a challenge. I either meet the threat and avoid the consequences or I don't, but at least I had the chance. Or maybe I do a better or worse job of lessening the consequences based on my performance.

I agree! Events shouldn't be totally random. Here's an idea.

Make things situation-specific! For example, if one has high populations and high unhealthiness (this is already in Civ4), make there a chance of a plague breaking out. Things the player can do to prevent this are:

1. Have certain technologies like refrigeration which automatically reduce the probability of such diseases

2. Build aqueducts etc. which increase city health.

In other words, it would be something the player could either proactively work against by building health-conducive buildings, or he could leave things to chance and risk his citizens catching a serious illness - which is of course what happened in the Dark Ages when rulers neglected their citizens in favour of cathedrals and knights!


As for city rebellion to form new factions that would be EXCELLENT for terra or continents maps. E.g. if a city is seriously unhappy (again, the player CAN already do things to prevent unhappiness) AND is on a separate continent from the civ's capital it could have a small chance of, not only flipping to another civ, but creating its own new civ! A recreation of the American War of Independence using THINGS FIRAXIS HAVE ALREADY PROGRAMMED but with a slight twist!


Yes, I agree - make these things preventable and NOT random. But that's so easy to do! The guys at Firaxis are surely capable of this, being better game designers than I am.

[Sleestax]

I agree that it should not be random and that players should have the capability to do things to reduce the chance of a plague/pandemic breaking out in their civ.

I too will be severely disappointed if the XP is only going to contain the next patch, a few new civs and new units for the new civs. I am not sure I would pay for that.

Anyway, if you don't like the pandemics idea. What would you propose for the XP? There are some Firaxis people who browse the forums, so maybe they will take some of the ideas to the game designers.

[Aquendwato]

Perhaps Pandemics could increase the unhealthiness of every city it hits. That'll make it disadvantageous to you, fairly easy to prevent, and not so game-breaking it leads to violence against inanimate objects on your desk.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Sleestax
I too will be severely disappointed if the XP is only going to contain the next patch, a few new civs and new units for the new civs. I am not sure I would pay for that.

Anyway, if you don't like the pandemics idea. What would you propose for the XP? There are some Firaxis people who browse the forums, so maybe they will take some of the ideas to the game designers.

I expect Firaxis have several volumes of ideas. Plagues were an optional extra that hardly anyone liked and used in a Civ 3 XP, ISTR. So in a sense they've already been taken out once.

Your best bet might by the modders - try and find someone to implement a 'Pandemics Mod'. If you find loads of players who think it's a blast, then good luck to you. Maybe you could include a 'whack-a-mole' pollution mod while you're at it.

[Dr. Broom]

I don't think they should add diseases because it will frustrate players if it is random, if it isn't it will be too easy to avoid.

The idea of using diseases as a weapon isn't very good in a game like Civ because it is such a new idea so it would only make a difference in the last 30 turns of the game if it even lasts that long.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Dr. Broom
The idea of using diseases as a weapon isn't very good in a game like Civ because it is such a new idea so it would only make a difference in the last 30 turns of the game if it even lasts that long.

It's not that new. During the Crusades, the Muslims used to send dead animals into the Christian forts using catapults. And the Europeans purposefully distributed blankets that were in contact with smallpox to various North American tribes in order to spread the disease further.

I don't think they should add diseases because it will frustrate players if it is random, if it isn't it will be too easy to avoid.

If it was tied into the health of a population, it could be just another factor to deal with like happiness. Let your people get too unhealthy and they start dying on you instead of just losing productivity. That seems quite sensible to me.