Great Profits (Prophets)

[dacole]

wow

There is so much to read for this stuff it is amazing. I've gotten way behind..

Can anyone point me to a good explanation of good ways to specialize cities, for example in a great person city how do you keep enough production to build the temples and such to keep the large population you would have to have happy? Chopping trees? What if none are around, since having a flood plain is almost nessecary to do this?

[dacole]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by DeepO


Sorry, but you're wrong. You don't need worker techs that early, you'll have your hands full getting the Oracle. Also, any decent slingshot strategy uses a lib + 2 scientists... beleive me, you'll welcome any extra production you can lay your hands on.




Eh?? So until you get the oracle you only have one or at most two cities??? Do you not end up not having enough cities to get good resources at this point especially since you don't know where many of them are? I usually research hunting, farming, and the wheel (I start with mining and fishing) along with a religous tech or two before going deep into the tree..is this not the best strategy?

[dacole]

Originally posted by Dog of Justice
Actually, Diadem was correct in using "quadratic" to describe 100+200+300+... With some simple algebra you can express the sum as 50n^2+50n.

The true cumulative cost is asymptotically cubic.

My lord...you know I've never actually sat down and figured out the mathmatical formula for the generation of something in a game...man! I'm impressed. Though I have to admit even through a third calculus course I've never heard the term asymptotically cubic before...

[padillah]

Originally posted by Diadem


GPs are still great, but it's better to focus on quality than quantity. Take for example The Parthenon. It increases your GP production by 50%. But if you are philosophical and you have national epic and pacifism that 50% is actually only 12.5%.

Why? Why does cumulation reduce the effects of any given element?

I just don't get that. It's like saying 2 +2 =4 but 2+6=7. I just don't get it.

Tom P.

[Thedrin]

If your only GP birth rate increase is from the Parthenon then you get +50% extra.

If you have the Philosophical trait or the Pacifism civic then the Parthenon (which will give +50% of your base great person points) will only give a +25% bonus on top of what you're getting without it.

If you have the both the Philosophical trait and the Pacifism civic then the Parthenon (again, giving +50% of your base great person points) will only give a +16.67% increase on top of what you're already getting.

These are best case scenarios since the Parthenon (unlike the other two bonuses) doesn't give an extra point for the final point when the base number is odd.

In a city with the National Epic and the +200% from Philosophical and Pacifism, the Parthenon only gives +14.29% on top of what the city already gets.

Some consequences:

1) The Parthenon may be a waste of resources if you plan on using other means of boosting great people since it can only marginally increase the birth rate.
2) If you want great people but don't want to generate Great Artists then the Parthenon may be an unnessecary risk.

[padillah]

Ok, it's official, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Say a city is getting 10 GPpt

+50% Parthenon = 10 + 5 = 15

Now what you are saying is that if I have a Philisophical leader then 50% of 10 is 2.5?

What?!?
Tom P.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by padillah
Now what you are saying is that if I have a Philisophical leader then 50% of 10 is 2.5?
Tom P.

If you are PHI, the Parthenon bonus is only applied to the base GP rate, not the 100% bonus you get from your trait. So you're getting 50% of 5, not 50% of 10.

That is as I understand it, and it means that PHI is a bit less powerful than it looks.

[Thedrin]

Look at three cases where a cities base gpppt (gpp per turn) is 10.

1) Civ has no gpp bonuses.
2) Civ has the Philosophical trait or the Pacifism civic.
3) Civ has both the Philosophical trait and Pacifism.

Total points:

1) 10
2) 20
3) 30

Now add the Parthenon to each of these 3 situations:

1) 15
2) 25
3) 35

So that the bonus given by the Parthenon on top of what the city was already getting is:

1) 50%
2) 25%
3) 16.67%

(that is 5 is 25% of 20 and 16.67% of 30)

Now, (assuming a constant gpppt) increasing the rate at which great people are born is primarily affected by a percentage increase in gpp (or I'm making an ass of myself). Consequently as a city accumulates percentage increases in gpp from other sources the value of the Parthenon goes down.

[padillah]

OK, I see what is presumed to be going down.

The problem with this view point is that the effect of the Parth (or, indeed anything other than GPP generators) doesn't go down, the results of that effect go down.

The same could be said for Pacifism. In the same example Pacifism is only +50% if you are already Philo and +25% if you are Philo and have N Epic.

The bonuses of Philo, or N. Epic, or Parth are not meaningful if viewed from the point of generating GPs themselves. They are only bonuses to the GP points.

In other words, to single out the Parth and say it's effects go down is like singling out a drop of rain and saying "THAT'S the one that caused the river to overflow", it's not meaningful.

Tom P.

[Thedrin]

Deleted: responding to Padillah's post prior to editing.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Thedrin
Deleted: responding to Padillah's post prior to editing.

Sorry about that. You posted a much more lucid example than Court Haus so I responded to that.

He had me thinking... many different things.

Thanks, I understand now.

Tom P.

[Thedrin]

Okay, I'm not sure if this is relevant now but I'll post it anyway:

In other words, to single out the Parth and say it's effects go down is like singling out a drop of rain and saying "THAT'S the one that caused the river to overflow", it's not meaningful.

True but there are reasons why the Parthenon is being singled out:

Firstly, since the Parthenon only gives 50% more while Philosophical and Pacifism give 100% the Parthenon's effect becomes less valuable faster.

Secondly, the Parthenon requires a lot of production to build. If you're Philosophical you're getting the bonus for free. If you're running Pacifism and aren't using a great deal of units (though I've done a successful warmonger game running Pacifism) you're getting the bonus at a relatively small cost. The Parthenon will cost the use of a lot of hammers which can be put to other uses.

Thirdly (and highly situational), while Great Artists can be useful and desired at times, if you don't want one of your great people to be an artist and have one of the 100% bonuses available to you then it'll be a risk to build the Parthenon.

As an aside, in another thread in this forum you mention that you always build wonders in case missing it would cause you to lose the game (I realise you're playing without wonders at the moment). While the Parthenon can be very useful it is a prime example of a wonder that is not always neccesary - whose usefullness is situation and strategy dependent.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

The bottom line is whether you are PHI or running PAC, the Parthenon still gives a benefit.

The problem is the benefit isn't as large as it typically would be comparatively speaking. It also costs a production to build and also dilutes your GPP pool by providing artists.

This happens with other combinations of traits/civics/wonders as well.

It essentially goes down to a matter of choice: Do you max out your strength, or do you go for more balance?

[ben04]

As I recall (at work and can't verify right now), no World Wonder generates more GPP than a specialist. For example, Stonehenge and The Oracle combined generate 4 GPP and one priest specialist generates 3 GPP. They also generate 1 gold and 1 hammer (2 if you're fortunate enough to get Angkor Wat) while they're generating GPP.

The Great Library generates indirectly 8 GPP. 2 by itself and 6 by the 2 free specialists it offers.

The priests aren't central to this strategy. They certainly are the best all around specialists but a mix of priest, merchants, scientists and enginers also do the job.

As in MP too many people go for the CS slingshot it is very hard to get it working I've come up with a different strategy : Go for the pyramids and use the greate enginer to rush the great library. These 2 wonders by themself generate already 10 GPP so they are worth getting. Furthermore the pyramids allow you to use representation which can help science a lot in the early game when you are using a lot of specialists.

Compared to the CS slingshot you are not bound to a that strict tech path. You can actually allow yourself to go for the worker techs. Also chances that you getthe pyramids are better in MP as nobody can build them just to cross your plans. When going for a CS slingshot you can not rush the oracle as most of the time it's the research that is the bottleneck. So to cross such plans another player only needs to rush the oracle. Nobody will get the CS slingshot.

Also the extra beakers you get from representation should make up for what burocatrie would have offert. Also with a significant techrate you can also simply research it and get both bonuses.

I'm however not sure on if an industrious or philosophical leader is best for this strategy. Spiritual seems a must to me because you will probably miss the late religions so an early religion would greatly help to train priests. The very late ones, meaning Islam and perhaps Christianism might also be an option.

Crutial to this strategy is that after having finished your library you do not assign any scientists until the GE appears. Missing him probably means missing the great library and those 8 GPP can hit you hard.


As to the Parthenon : The benifits definatly aren't worth the effort. Better spend those hammers on land grabbing early in the game so that you have more cities working on GPs.

Also what's the point in building one creach city? Several of them will make the GP come a lot faster.

Combined Sistine Chapel this strategy is also valuable for cultural wins.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by padillah


Sorry about that. You posted a much more lucid example than Court Haus so I responded to that.

Tom P.

I didn't post any examples, just a summary of the rule : "the Parthenon bonus is only applied to the base GP rate". That might not be lucid to you but it is to me.