Great Profits (Prophets)

[Blake]

The slignshot basically means building the Oracle and selecting a tech that would be very expensive to research, thus getting it 50+, even a hundred of turns earlier. The most common tech is Civil Service "CS Slingshot", other good techs are Philosophy, Metal Casting and even Machinery. A proper slingshot tech will nearly entirely bypass an entire age.

[Diadem]

That sounds like a strategy that will only work on the lower difficulties.

To do a CS slingslot you need to have Code of Laws before anyone builds oracle. Can you actually do that? Perhaps if you beeline straight for Code of Laws. That gives you a religion too. But you won't have any of the worker techs that are so important early game. And you'll probably miss the pyramids.

[Diadem]

Just tried an experiment on monarch, as india so starting with mysticism. I researched agriculture, hunting and the wheel and then beelined straight for code of laws. The Oracle was built about 20 turns before I reached Code of Laws.

That CS slingshot strategy is totally chanceless imho.

[Quillan]

It's not. You spent time researching three techs before heading off for Code of Laws. What you have to do is get Priesthood and immediately beeline for Code while the Oracle is building. Finish the Oracle the turn of or the turn after you get Code of Laws, and select Civil Service as the free tech. You may still get beat to it, but it depends on circumstances. I can see it being hard on the highest difficulties, because on Monarch+ you really can't expand in the beginning, and you need some research going to do this.

[Diadem]

Researching code of laws before even researching your basic worker techs is simply not an option.

You won't have any access to resources, you can't improve anything in your city. That simply is not gonna work.

[Quillan]

That's a good point, Diadem. At least you'd have to research Masonry to get access to marble, and probably up to Pottery to build some cottages for the research.

[Blake]

I can pull it off nearly 100% of the time on Monarch... unless the start is really bad.

Try this beeline (works best for philo and/or financial):
Research to writing, via whatever worker techs make most sense (you only really have time for 1).
Build a library, assign a libarian or 2 depending on food and civ traits.
After writing, head to Priesthood, and start researchng Code of Laws and building the Oracle.
While doing this, the Great Scientist should appear. Build an acadamy and adjust workers.
Time the oracle to complete with code of law.


Exactly how it goes depends on the civ and the start. You might expand, or you might not. I usually go for 1 worker and 1 settler, or 2 workboats and 1 settler.
Founding on hills is pretty important with only warriors for defense.

Advantage of having a settler out is the 2nd city to build military/claim resources, and also it gets conf and thus free border expansions, which is really quite a powerful thing. With a philo slignshot I try to have a 3rd city out in time for Tao and thus another free cultured city. The feasability of doing so depends on things like the presence of marble, with marble you'll complete the oracle far sooner than Code of Laws and can thus train the 2nd settler.

As I said, it works great on Monarch and is extremely reliable unless your start is truly appalling. CS Slinghot is easiest and most reliable, Philo slingshot is more risky but usually works.

Slingshots are suicide in Multiplayer.

[solo]

I agree.

I've done the slingshot to Civil Service on Emperor and still had time left to build the Pyramids afterwards.

On Immortal, I've done it once so far in two games. Even got to Code of Laws first for Confucianism, and a bit later reached Philosophy first, too. This was by using Gandhi.

The AI usually spread around their research instead gong deep into the tech tree.

[Diadem]

In my experience the AI will always build the oracle very soon. Way before the pyramids. Perhaps if you truly beeline for it, you can do it.

But I think it's not worth it then. I'd rather have stongehenge and pyramids and a few cities going than oracle.

[solo]

Yes, I guess I lucked out in that game.

Ever since in subsequent games, the AI have beaten me to the Oracle on Immortal, sometimes building it before I even start!

Stonehenge and the Pyramids are still quite doable, though, and probably the best bet at this level. I'm still am most often first to an early religion with Gandhi, though.

[Diadem]

What early religion? I always get beaten to buddism, usually by one turn, on monarch or higher. Polytheism might be possible if there's no AI going for it (most seem to want buddism, others might not have mysticism). But if the AI does try for polytheism, which is more likely the more AIs are around, you'll loose.

Right now this is my usual strategy, playing as ghandi:

I start by researching some worker techs. Which wants depends on my starting position of course. If you have cows getting animal husbandry is a good idea. I already have mining, so my workers will have enough to do now. I might take the time to get The Wheel as well.

Then I go for monotheism, starting with masonry. I always seem to get monotheism using this strategy. So that's good.

Meanwhile in my city I usually start with a warrior, then a worker once my city is size 2. Usually this means my worker will be about finished (give or take a few turns) by the time I get animal husbandry. That's good timing

After that it's either a settler or stonehenge. Pyramids are next. You can't choprush it, but you don't need it if you start that early. If your city has a good productionspeed you can have it done before the barbs start throwing serious things at you.

After monotheism, you can try for the Oracle if you're feeling lucky, or go for ironworking if you feel less lucky

[Common Sensei]

If the superspecialists are handling the economy, is Mercantilism now more attractive to use so that you can make use of the one free specialist per city?

[solo]

Diadem,

I went for Hinduism in my game with Gandhi. I think there was only one other civ in that game starting with Mysticism, and they went to Meditation, and afterwards stayed away from the Oracle long enough to give me enough time to finish it. Even with my slingshot to Civil Service early, the AI raced ahead of me quickly through the tech tree. I was only able to build 9 SS parts before one of them finished. I was able to get the Internet in that game, but never achieved any sort of tech lead that was possible at lower levels.

For most Immortal games, I think Stonehenge & the Pyramids are the best bet for early wonders, when you consider you will be beat more often than not to any of the others. Your opening strategy sounds like a good one to me. I'll give it a try next.

Commn Sensei,

Mercantalism may be well worth trying out. Nothing else has produced success for me yet at Immortal in OCC!

[DeepO]

Good discussion going here

Originally posted by Diadem
Angkor Wat does NOT give bonus to great prophets. Hence it's not too important I think.

I don't agree at all. The Wat is important because it will let you run priests. Having the hammer bonus from them is a good extra... and will make the GPr pump much more viable. But great priests should not receive a hammer bonus, or you will have a game mechanic which is unbalanced, and exploitative.

Consider this:
- Angkor Wat gives priests, and give a bonus to both priests and great priests (so settled GPr).
- you run priests and gain GPr.
- you add these to the city, and create even more bonus then you already were using
- this will make it possible to run more priests (as more production from specialists means less production needed from your land. --> more fpt --> more priests)
- More priests give more GPr. More GPr give more Great Priests. And the circle is round...

You end up in a exponential situation, which unbalances the game. People who have a possible pure floodplain city will always need to run such a Angkor Wat - GPr pump - Mega gold city. Otherwise, they won't get the most out of their land.
Others playing the same game but unable to build a fp-city are seriously disadvantaged.

In most cases, multipliers are avoided because of this exponential effect they can cause. Which is why certain things might seem a bit limited...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Diadem
Researching code of laws before even researching your basic worker techs is simply not an option.

You won't have any access to resources, you can't improve anything in your city. That simply is not gonna work.

Sorry, but you're wrong. You don't need worker techs that early, you'll have your hands full getting the Oracle. Also, any decent slingshot strategy uses a lib + 2 scientists... beleive me, you'll welcome any extra production you can lay your hands on.

Always building the Oracle before reaching CoL: Erhm... how many times did you try to delay the Oracle? Or, speed up CoL? I've done both successfully in about any beeline (and I do a lot of thems, typically 60-70% of my games). Being too fast in CIV is the easiest thing to correct. Being too slow is a lot harder

And last thing: This works well on all levels, however there is a bit of a practical limit in between Monarch and Emperor. On Monarch, a good focus and strategy will let you slingshot your way to the good techs on all maps, and barring very bad luck you are guaranteed to be able to pull it off.

After Monarch, it starts to depend on situation. But Aeson pulled off a CS-beeline on deity in his AU101 game. It is possible, which doesn't necessary means you know how to do it (nor do I )

There is a thread dealing with technology beelining. You'll find more answers there.

DeepO