Great Profits (Prophets)

[asleepathewheel]

this is a fun technique, but when I am successful at it on Monarch+, inevitably, the ai jumps me right as I'm transitioning out of the early wonder rush, ie, when my defenses are weak.

Though admittedly, it seems like I can only be successful on monarch if I do an iron beeline and engage in early warfare, forgoing all early wonders.hmm.

[Derelict]

Originally posted by Blake
I've also decided there is no merit to a "super super science" city - where you add GS's. In nearly all cases it's better to make acadamies, or not make the GS's in the first place. So just build Oxfords in the best commerce city (probably coastal+many cottages).

You might want to rethink that. Consider the following setup:

Civics:
Free Religion +10%
Representation +3 beakers per specialist

Super City Buildings:
Library +25%
University +25%
Observatory +25%
Laboratory +25%
Oxford University +100%
Academy +50%
[Monastaries obselete by this point]

Total base bonus: 250% + 10% civic = 260%

Fooling around with the editor I was able to setup a super-science-city (an SSC we'll call it, as opposed to say a SCC; a super-commerce-city )

It was size 22, had all the above listed buildings, civics, etc. Due to the buildings, it is possible to have 6 standard science specialists. I added 5 great scienists as super specialists for a total of 11 specialists, and obviously it would require one further to have established the academy (though we're talking a mere 6 actual great people here to establish this city).

At 100% science the city was generating 518 bpt--that city alone could discover fission or a future tech (10,400 beakers) in 20 turns.

Effectively each super scientist would add 32.4 beakers to the city due to the bonuses (they are worth a base 9 plus a modifier of 260%, or 32.4 beakers). In addition they added 5 raw hammers, so modified according to the presence of a forge, factory and power = +10 hammers, something the regular science specialists obviously don't provide.

On that note, however, the 6 regular specialists would generate 22 GPP's or 44 GPP's for a philosophical leader (55 with the presence of the Parthenon, though that would be obselete in the later era's, obviously, yet quite possible to achieve with the great library and 4 standard specialists even still).

That overlooks, as well, using caste system to squeak in a few more regular scientists, though I think I had to go to a size 25 city to get 8 in without starvation and, for that matter, emancipation could cause a happiness problem--it may not be worth the extra struggle, not at that point in the game anyhow. Certainly must be possible to get more out of the deal with a lot of configuring and attention to the city along the way.

Needless to say, even a smaller sized civilization, say 6 to 8 cities, with such a super science city, could absolutely tear through the tech tree.

Also, one other thing to mention is that even with 0% science set, the city was earning something like 350 beakers per turn--still quite substantial considering you would be streaming your bank account full of cash, or maximizing your culture all the while.

-----------------------------------------------

Figuring when to stop...building academies that is!

So here is the thing to keep in mind; At what point do you stop producing academies in other cities (of which at least a few will receive greater than 32.4 beakers from that single great scientist making an academy) and start adding them as super scientists to a primary city that will receive Oxford and all other buildings as listed? It's basically a trick of finding the crossover point where it no longer pays off as well, or as certain, to establish academies as it does to add any great scientists to your "super city".

Depending on the size of your civ, and the way you have built them up, the appropriate number of cities to establish academies in is probably 20-30% of your total number. So in a small civ of 6 cities (need 6 at least for Oxford), you are looking at 1-2 cities getting academies. A larger civ of say 30 cities will have 6 to 10 cities getting academies, which likely spreads things to thinly for making a true super-science-city, based on the ability to generate great scientists--maybe that isn't true, I dunno, would have to experiment.

So let's just say 25% as an average, or 20% as a conservative cut-off point. Once you have academies in those cities, you dedicate any further ones to your super city. Again, the real number of cities will probably vary quite a bit from player to player, thanks to differences in strategy, city build outs, map nuances, etc. But as a rule of thumb I think it's probably safe to go with 25% of your cities getting academies using this tactic.

Elizabeth or Victoria might be prime candidates for this, as both have financial which is a natural for tech strategies and Elizabeth carries philosophical, for more great peeps, or Victoria, to more easily establish a large enough city to add in even more standard specialists, both along the way and at the end game. For that reason, too, Peter might be a good choice, with philosophical/expansionistic--big cities, lots of GPP's, but without the added financial dimension.

Something to think about!

[Quillan]

I used the Oracle->Civil Service jump in my game today, and had no trouble at all researching from there to Philosophy ahead of everyone else. I had another alone-on-an-island start, and configuring for max commerce and taking the jump to CS has let me come out of it ahead of everyone in the tech race (on Noble). I've got one city configured for max science, another heading for the Ironworks/Wall Street combo, and a third producing great prophets. I just hit the year 1600 in the game, and I'm pulling 105 a turn profit at 100% science, running under Pacifism. Wow, this is a powerful idea.

[Blake]

With Acadamies vs SSSpecialists, it's a simply calcuation.

Does an acadamyless city have more than 52 base commerce (36 for non-rep)? If so, acadamy. Otherwise, create Scientist in your SSC.

In the extreme early game though some civs can generate many scientists quickly, in fact it might be the best option if you failed to get wonders (since libarians->scientists is pretty effective), in this case you tend to get way too many to make acadamies and the cities only have like 8 base commerce, so super-scientists are better. Altough in some cases I create Acadmies in cities that will have strong commerce one day, mainly for the immediate +4 culture (in this way scientists can be used as incredibly lame culture bombs).

But I think the super-scientist specialits themselves are inferior, 1 hammer +6 beakers is not as good as 2 hammers +5 coins or 1 food +6 coins. In the long run, having hammers to build the spaceship is what really counts. Scientists fail to deliver. The coin merchants produce more net hammers and subsidise 100% science spending.

It's ALWAYS simply a matter of doing the maths. SSS beakers (6/9) x ScienceCity Multipler, vs 0.5 * Base_Commerce_Of_Acadamyless_Cities

Altough I admit it's fun seeing big beaker counts in a city.

[Common Sensei]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
this is a fun technique, but when I am successful at it on Monarch+, inevitably, the ai jumps me right as I'm transitioning out of the early wonder rush, ie, when my defenses are weak.

Though admittedly, it seems like I can only be successful on monarch if I do an iron beeline and engage in early warfare, forgoing all early wonders.hmm.

If you have a civ that starts with Mysticism, you can nab a very early religion, rush build a temple and start producing GPP points almost equivalent to having built Stonehenge and The Oracle. You may not need to start with Mysticism to get an early religion, but it helps, of course.

One priest specialist gives +3 GPP, Stonehenge and Oracle both together give +4 GPP. However, the temple is safe and guaranteed, while the wonders are not.

The holy city of a new religion is a random element. With the holy structure built, a city can assign three priests. If you get Buddhism, it's pretty much a certainty that the capital will be the holy city. The later you go, the more you have to consider food generation for your early cities as they may be the city that becomes a holy city to make use of the potential extra priests.

[Common Sensei]

I've come to believe that the Philosophy slingshot is really only viable for civs that start with Mysticism. Trying it with non-Spirituals, I found myself overextended more often than not.

[Diadem]

In the OCC game I just finished, I managed to produce 26 great people. Plus 4 bonus ones from discovering techs.

That's a VERY BIG bonus to your city

[ben_sphynx]

One thing to note is that Burocracy was doing nothing to help the cash output when one has science set to 100%.
It only modifies base commerse, and doesnt affect bonus cash from buildings (shrines) or specialists.

[Diadem]

Let's calculate the effect of being philosophical.

If I'm not mistaken bonuses in this game work over the base rate, and not over eachother. Twice 50% production bonus is 100% bonus total and not 125% as you'd expect.

This is true also for the philosophical trait. So, your city has a base GPP rate, which will be mofidied by:
1) 100% from national epic
2) 50% from the parthenon
3) 100% from pacifism
4) 100% from philosophical

A total bonus of 350%. Without the philosophical trait you'd have had only 250% bonus. So a philosophical civ produces 29% more GPPs than a non-philosophical one.

The cost of GP rises with each person. The first costs 100, the 2nd 200, the 3rd 300, etc. This boils down to the first n GPs costing 50n(n+1) points. So the costs of GPs goes up quadraticly.

This means that if you produces 29% more points, you'll actually produce the square root of this, which is 13%, more GPs. Actually there is a lineair term in the equation as well, so you'll produce slightly more. Let's say 15%.

A philosophical leader will generate about 15% more GPs during the game

Is this worth it?

In the best case scenario this means you'll have 3-4 extra GPs. Most likely it'll only be 2-3 more. Let's assume these are all Great Prophets. That's about 6 hammers, 15 gold, and, with representation, 9 beakers extra. Assuming gold and beakers to be equally valuable that's 6 hammers and 24 raw commerce.

But remember, this is late game. You start out like everybody, without GPs. Averaged over the entire game you'll only have half this number of GPs extra. So 3 hammers and 12 raw commerce.

That sounds like a low bonus, but it's actually pretty good. Better for sure than being organised. 12 raw commerce is worth 30 gold or so in your capital. You'd have to have a civic upkeep cost of 60 to get that much bonus. With such a civic upkeep however, it's time to retire and cry. Financial might give a higher bonus, but you'll need a specialized strategy then, which will be incompatible with a GP strategy. Aggresive is a trait the effect of which is hard to put in numbers, but it implies an aggressive, expansionist play style which seems incompatible with a GP strategy. Culture, and thus creative, is useless for our strategy. Expansive is nice but not too important either if you don't expand aggressively and fast.

Industrious and spiritual however seem better than philosophical. Having no anarchy really rules. And extra speed on wonders is a very good thing. After all, your entire GP strategy pretty much falls down if you fail to get those wonders

So the best leader for a GP strategy is.... Ghandi!

[Common Sensei]

After all, your entire GP strategy pretty much falls down if you fail to get those wonders

I disagree with this. With an early religion, you can build a temple early (I'd even chop rush it) and assign a priest specialist. The the first Great Prophet comes 34 turns later (17 for Philosophical), used to build the holy structure (which grants +1GPP by the way), and then you are able to assign up to four priest specialists total. Although they help substantially, wonders aren't the only way.

As I recall (at work and can't verify right now), no World Wonder generates more GPP than a specialist. For example, Stonehenge and The Oracle combined generate 4 GPP and one priest specialist generates 3 GPP. They also generate 1 gold and 1 hammer (2 if you're fortunate enough to get Angkor Wat) while they're generating GPP.

You're basically going to end up with a combination of Wonders and priest specialists for this approach. The more Great Prophet super specialists you have in a city, however, the easier it will be to get the other prophet wonders.

Ghandi has both options covered. He seems to be the best as far as the "0 to 60" aspect of the approach. The leaders who are best suited to the approach have two of Industrious, Spiritual, and Philosophical. That gives us Ghandi and Saladin, since there is no Industrious and Philosophical (and this thread is exactly why, I suspect).

[Diadem]

But if you rush a temple like that and assign priest specialists right from the start, you'll slow the growth and production of your city a lot. Making getting more wonders even harder.

I don't recommend getting specialists before your city is size ten or something, and you have representation. You'll miss out on a few GP points. But you'll catch up on those later on. That early GP is way less important than a second city, or an early wonder.

And wonders are very important. I agree that specialists give a lot of points as well, but remember that if you have wonders you can still run specialists. The wonders don't exclude those.

In fact I build any wonder I can that doesn't give Great Artists. Great Prophets may be best, but Scientists and Engineers are definitely very useful as well, and Merchants are also very cool. A merchant gives food, which allows you to run more specialists.

[Common Sensei]

Originally posted by Diadem
But if you rush a temple like that and assign priest specialists right from the start, you'll slow the growth and production of your city a lot. Making getting more wonders even harder.

I don't recommend getting specialists before your city is size ten or something, and you have representation. You'll miss out on a few GP points. But you'll catch up on those later on. That early GP is way less important than a second city, or an early wonder.

And wonders are very important. I agree that specialists give a lot of points as well, but remember that if you have wonders you can still run specialists. The wonders don't exclude those.

In fact I build any wonder I can that doesn't give Great Artists. Great Prophets may be best, but Scientists and Engineers are definitely very useful as well, and Merchants are also very cool. A merchant gives food, which allows you to run more specialists.

You can assign up to four, as described above, but it would be absolutely ill-advised to assign all four at the start. I would basically assign one for every wonder I missed, unless the city was exceptionally food-rich, then I could assign extra if I wanted to. My point is that missing wonders isn't necessarily going to kill the approach.

[solo]

I agree.

Early in the game in OCC, I will build the prophet generating wonders and add priest specialists when at the happiness limit, when city growth must be temporarily interrupted. The city develops faster and I end up with more GP point producers. I think I had GP production up over 100/ turn later in the game, after adding in the GP bonus wonders and specialists later.

Also, I recommend Civil Service for the slingshot in OCC, rather than Philosophy. After obtaining Civil Service as the free Oracle tech, switching citizens as needed to maximize commerce is apt to get you Philosophy first for another religion, Taoism. The extra hammers available then from Bureaucracy and from joining early GP's to the city make quick work out of building the Angor Wat and other GP point enhancers.

[Common Sensei]

That's another good point about specialists and wonders. Sometimes growth needs to be suppressed. City unhealth or an unhappy citizen could have been a specialist generating GPP.

[Diadem]

I agree with you guys that putting specialists in your city is the smart strategy.

My point however is that you should not sacrifice your chances of getting a world wonder for this. Those world wonders will generate GPs for the rest of the game. That is well worth a few turns of having less or even no specialists.

And I still don't know what you guys mean with a 'slingshot'. I've been trying to figure it out for days now ... What is it?