Great Profits (Prophets)

[Diadem]

Angkor Wat does NOT give bonus to great prophets. Hence it's not too important I think.

[Common Sensei]

Originally posted by Diadem
Angkor Wat does NOT give bonus to great prophets. Hence it's not too important I think.

Right, it's more of a side benefit for the (regular) priest specialists you'll have out to facilitate getting Great Prophets.

[Blake]

This strategy is solid gold.

Check out this mega-city. It it packed with Great Merchants (3), Great Prophets (10) and Great Artist (1, throw fruit at him). It has Wallstreet and Ironworks.


It produces 71 base hammers a turn, and is in a minimally special spot. Without the food from the merchants it wouldn't even be an impressive size. I shudder to think what this city would look like on a GOOD spot (like replace the gems with resources that give food or hammers, rather than REDUCE hammers). In any case I was impressed when it popped out Broadway in 5 turns. Ofcourse, while cranking out wonder and spaceship parts it's also paying for my entire economy with plenty left over to give to Mansa in exchance for techs (4400 gold and one of my techs? sounds fair...). I have the Kremlin, but with a core of only 7 cities don't really have enough to buy, so the cash just piles up. I upgrade and rush stuff on the slightest whim.

Another city is the Oxford city.


Anyway Moscow is kicking ass, putting out a truly sick amount of science thanks in no small part to the miracle of trade. Along with that sick science it's cranking out the 50 hammers a turn. Oxford/Heroic isn't a combo I'd usually go for, but Moscow's production so surpassed any other candidate, and since I had Pentagon I wasn't worried about westpoint...

I suspect with Phil civs and a decent start this will allow you to outbuild AI's on monarch and possibly higher.

[Quillan]

Damned nice setup there, Blake. I've fallen in love with the Russians in this game (Catherine). What are you using as your great person factory? Or do you get enough from those two cities to have built them from just that?

[Blake]

Nope, I'm using a dedicated "GP Creche". It's a little less than ideal, only having 1 food resource and 2 floodplains, but it was the best option and on the river for the extra health.

(almost 70% of the science in the city comes from trade)

You'll note it is the Tao holy city, I decided to build the Shrine for Tao too, I wanted priests and it had criminally low hammers in the early game. Popping the Tao Shrine gave it 3 extra priests, which provided 6 extra hammers and really helped it produce the national epic and stuff while still making those yummy cash-specialists (While running Caste I usually had it on all Merchants, once I dropped Caste it basically went back to priests). I think it produced about 60% of the GP, the capital producing 30% and the remaining cities about 10%.

Altough St.Peters has good GPP now, that's only a post-biology phenomina, until biology it couldn't really afford to run any specialists at all. This sucked as it was my "priest" city (with the Conf shrine and the Angkor), the inability to make priests in St.Peters is actually the main reason I made the Tao shrine, I just really wanted those priests ASAP. (the shrine income and culture also proved to be decent benefits)

[Derelict]

Originally posted by Blake
This strategy is solid gold.

It really is--I've been using a similar strategy as Elizabeth and slapping hordes of scientists into two primary cities. Also, I had been having a lot of trouble finding a strategy that felt comfortable and worked well with Saladin and I tried it in a very similar fashion to what you have been describing to great success (though I had a city focused on creating engineers so that I could nab up wonders along the way that I wanted and wasn't quite as focused on priests like you are, which is brilliant!)

No doubt about it, the strategy is really an excellent one and points out how developing a couple or even three "supercities" through specialists and wonders can secure a solid win.

It makes me wonder, if this was done using engineers for a civ like Germany/Bismarck, just what the result may be. I've developed a very successful strategy with him that beelines to Pyramids, Parthenon and Hanging Gardens. However, I was not dumping them into cities as super specialists but would either use them to ensure specific wonders I wanted or, even more frequently, to discover techs to help propel me ahead of anyone else (I love the techs that engi's "discover"). I can only imagine dumping the engineers into a city as super specialists could make some absolutely powerhouse production cities--my primary goal, with a strong tech game as a secondary, when playing as Bismarck. Even as it stands, with the strategy I have used, Germany would be an amazing production powerhouse that becomes virtually unstoppable by the time the later stages of the game arrives.

I think I'll have to go give that a try now and see how it comes out using them as super specialists! Brilliant stuff to be sure Blake! Variations on this could probably be translated to other civ/leaders using other specialist types to great success.

[Enigma_Nova]

Parthenon is a Great Artist building.

I've never considered settling the Engineers, because usually I'll have my capital be the GP factory with Forge / Pyra / Hanging and the National Epic / Ironworks as national wonders.
The problem with settling them is that you pretty much have to both settle and create them in the Ironworks city,
which is almost certainly your capital as you run Beauro.

Sure, the Production would be insane - but having your Unit Spam base be the same as your GP Spam base leaves little room for specialisation.

Still, I'll try it out. See how it goes. =]

[Derelict]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Parthenon is a Great Artist building.

True, but the +50% GPP from it is the real goal for getting it, at least with Bismarck.

I've never considered settling the Engineers, because usually I'll have my capital be the GP factory with Forge / Pyra / Hanging and the National Epic / Ironworks as national wonders.
The problem with settling them is that you pretty much have to both settle and create them in the Ironworks city,
which is almost certainly your capital as you run Beauro.

I haven't often settled them either but thought, perhaps, that the strategy outlined in this thread might somehow translate into an engineer based version--which is why Bismarck sprung to mind since I've already tried some variations with that sort of goal.

The problem is that, at least with what I have tried, it can be difficult to get Prya-Hanging and the Parth, particularly if there is no marble or stone about...in many cases I would miss the Parth (since I tend to start on it late and have to try and beat someone already producing it), sometimes just by a handful of turns. It also requires a lot of early focus to get all three and that can result in under-expansion (i.e., fewer cities than desirable). The only option then is to turn military and try for land grab, if possible, or play catch up through the medieval and usually the Renaissance.

Anyhow, I did just try something like the above, had a really bad start and no stone/marble to boot, missed the Parth and still underexpanded so I ended up having to play through with a mere 5 cities (military was just out of the question since Elizabeth was the only real target for me, stuck on an island, and she had a clear tech lead on everyone). Certainly not one of my better games but it still revealed the potential in some variation on the strategy.

In the end, I actually produced more great scientists then engineers, virtually all I dumped into the capitol (only made 2 acadamies). The science in the city was extremely strong, something like 450+ per turn, and production was no laggard either--definitely a supercity. It helped me to come back through the Rennaissance, put up enough military to prevent an invasion (combined with a late def-pact w/Elizabeth) and go all tech/production to win a space race. I don't think I've ever managed to do so with a mere 5 cities and only 11 turns left in the game!

I'll have to try again in hopes of a better start or, more likely, figure out a more reliable variant of the strategy (possibly just entirely skip worrying on the Parth, as helpful as it might be, to prevent the odds of underexpansion).

Sure, the Production would be insane - but having your Unit Spam base be the same as your GP Spam base leaves little room for specialisation.

Still, I'll try it out. See how it goes. =]

I'd be interested in hearing your results! I wonder what the chances are of getting two really strong production cities as opposed to just the one--do something like establishing you mentioned w/forge, pyra, hanging, ironworks and then switching the palace (for "Beauro") to a second well placed production city and dumping all the engi-specialists there, or dividing them as needed between the two in hopes of getting two really strong (rather than one very, very strong) production cities.

It might work best with someone like Qin Shi Huang due to the extra financial boost (to keep science up all along the way) and of course Industrious to bang out the desired W-Wonders. Or, possibly, Elizabeth to ensure the higher rate of GP via Philosophical with the faster tech thanks to financial. I still see Bismarck as a strong potential for production because you can grow huge cities more easily/quickly and he has the inherent advantages for getting a production centric-civ going.

[Enigma_Nova]

Gotta plan the Tech and Expansion paths pretty well.
The reason your Ironworks city is both your Production and GP powerhouse is this:
Ironworks allows 3 Engineers,
and gives +100% Production with Iron and Coal.

For this strat, what tech do we need?
Masonry, Mathematics, Metal Casting, Possibly Polytheism, Possibly Iron Working.
An Industrious Civ is a given. One with Mining is a big plus.
So, Qin, Gandhi or Bismarck

Bismarck's got +2 Health, quick Granaries (Pop rush) and Hunting for Huts and Archers.
Qin's got +1 Gold to River Cottages, Agriculture for Farms (Pop rush)
Gandhi's got Mysticism (Early religion), No Anarchy and Fast Workers (Choppers)

Gandhi seems best to perform this strat.

[Common Sensei]

Here's a possibility to consider. You may have heard of the Civil Service beeline gambit. What if we modified it for this strategy? What if, instead of using the Oracle to jump to Civil Service, we jump to Philosophy?

The key techs for the Philosophy gambit for Great People are Priesthood (for the Oracle), Code of Laws, and Meditation. If Priesthood did not come by way of Meditation, then that's an extra tech to go back for, since it's a prerequisite for Philosophy. Civs that start with Mysticism (all Spiritual civs plus Inca) would have an easier time with this.

The timing with Code of Laws is the tricky part, since you might have to suppress production on the Oracle just enough so that you get Code of Laws in the same turn the Oracle is built.

What would be gained with this gambit? Chances are, you're founding one, if not two religions in the same turn. Most importantly, You're getting Pacifism very, very early.

Whether or not you can use Pacifism early depends on circumstance. If you end up with Montezuma, Napoleon and Alexander as neighbors, chances are you wouldn't be able to afford the defenses you'd need with the extra military maintenance cost under Pacifism. If you're alone on an island, though, you're safe until someone gets Optics. It's something to be played by ear.

If the situation is ripe for this very early Pacifism, then the Great People are in business. If your civ is Philosophical, the first several Great People will appear so quickly, that you can probably afford to REX in a sustained burst.

The leader with the easiest path for the Philosophy Gambit that can take great advantage from it is Saladin. Being Spiritual, he has less techs to research and is also Philosophical once he gets there. Not only that, he can flip the Pacifism switch on and off without the anarchy as need arises.

I've tried this gambit once with Peter the Great, and it worked very well. However, once doesn't prove anything. If anyone else tries this Philosophy Gambit for Great People, let me know what you find.

[Blake]

It's an interesting idea. But I think if you succeed with the CS slingshot you can proceed to out-research anyone to Philosophy anyway. It might be an idea if you miss out on Conf though.

edit: Thinking about it, it might be good for an all-religions grab, since you could get so many prophets and use them to grab Theo and Divine Right. I think this is a novelty strategy more than anything though, but if you do want to found 5-7 religions on Monarch it would be the way...

[asleepathewheel]

what level for these games?

[WoodenTaco]

I did this strategy last night, sort of stumbling into it, since I hadn't read this thread. I was playing a one-city challenge game as Qin Shi Huang (Ind/Fin) and this strategy was incredible.

At the end of the game i had over 14,000 gold and I had never lowered science below 100%. I was buying resources off of other civs for exorbitant prices and it didn't hurt me at all. Aluminum for 143 gold per turn, oil for 88 gold per turn, you get the gist.

The slingshot to philosophy with the Oracle is what makes this one so good

[Common Sensei]

The Rome game was Noble (challenge game from another non-civ forum).

I think the German game was Prince. I've started fluctuating between Prince and Monarch, but haven't gotten a foothold in Monarch yet.

One more, perhaps minor, thing about the Philosophy slingshot I just thought of is that you have first crack at Angkor Wat.

[Blake]

The Philo slingshot (for some reason I want to kill it the Thinkapult) is a bit more impressive than I first thought. Mainly because you found 2 religions very quickly. In some cases having (multiple) religions can be essential due to a bad happy start (if not essential... then useful anyway). Potentionally more useful is you can found conf in one city, then tao in another, getting "free" border expansions for both. You also get 2 shrines, for assinging a great many priests in multiple bases. ANd are pratically guaranteed the Angkor.

I suspect it may be better for non-Philo civs, since they get doubled GPP out of the deal, rather than just +50% for Philo civs. But a Philo civ would still be getting their GP's earlier which could be critical if you want to extend it to grab more religious techs.

I've also decided there is no merit to a "super super science" city - where you add GS's. In nearly all cases it's better to make acadamies, or not make the GS's in the first place. So just build Oxfords in the best commerce city (probably coastal+many cottages).