100% science - How is it possible? Game Mechanics

[Finsch]

I have a question regarding bonus from buildings and the working of tiles + use of specialists + income from founded religions + income from traderoutes and the setting of the science + culture percentage value and the upkeep. (I hope i did not forget something)

Please see symbol explanation at the end of the post.
If the formula would be

profit = ( ( \sum{(tl + sp + (tr*trBon)) * bBon )} + rl)
* (100 - pSet)
- upkeep ,

then a 100% percentageSetting would never be possible when upkeep > 0 and profit > 0. But usually, i am able to maintain profit even with percentageSetting > 0, so i suspect it is

profit = \sum{(tl * bBon)} * (100 - pSet)
+ \sum{(sp + (tr*trBon)) * bBon}
+ religion
- upkeep


Can someone confirm this or explain to me how the economy works? Does bBon apply to specialists? Does bBon AND trBon apply to tr, as i suspect in the calculations, or is it only trBon? Is it right that it does not apply to religion (although the income is generated in a city that contains the religious building generating money?)

I looked into the city guide by remconius and some other threads, i did not find anything on this topic. I am sorry if this questions has already been asked or answered.


Legend:
tl = income from tiles
sp = income from specialists
tr = trade route income
rl = income from you religion(s)
bBon = bonus from Buildings
trBon = bonus to trade routes from buildings
pSet = percentage Slider Setting
upkeep = upkeep (civic + military spending)
\sum{sum over citys} = sum over all citys. Everything within {} gets calculated for each city seperatly and then summed up

[Skanky Burns]

Specialist income is gold, not trade, so it doesn't get converted to science. Income from religion shrines (the ones you can get when founding a religion) also add gold directly. Set your science to 100% then hover the mouse over the gold production in the city window. It will show you where your gold is coming from.

[Finsch]

So on tiles trade is generated, whereas shrines and specialists generate gold directly.
Do buildings that give more gold (like banks and markets) effect both trade and the gold generated from specialists? Gold generated by shrines is uneffected, i think.
I am at the office, so i cant check that at the moment.

[sabrewolf]

first, i'd like to say that i appreciate the \LaTeX style of your formula (and to all non-academics: it's nothing dirty ).

markets, grocers and banks have their affect AFTER all the absolute numbers. that is why with 90% gold you won't really have any gold-powerhouses except religious centres (which imho is not very realistic) or merchant-whoring cities. same goes for culture, science and production (with latter, "carry-over-from-last-production" is an exception).

basically it means:
baseGold = baseTrade * pTax
baseSci = baseTrade * pSci
baseClt = baseTrade * pClt

where pTax+pSci+pClt = 1 or 100%

effective values:
effGold = (baseGold + absGold[specialistGold+someWondersGold+shrineGold]) * multiplierGold[marketMult+bankMult+grocerMult+someWondersMult]

effCulture = (baseCulture + absCulture[specialistCulture+someWondersCulture+religionCultu re+buildingCulture]) * multiplierGold[cathedral/stupa/etcMult+hermitageMult]

effSci = (baseSci + absSci[specialistSci+someWondersSci+shrineSci]) * multiplierSci[libraryMult+observatoryMult+universityMult+laborat oryMult+someWondersMult+oxfordMul]

i probably left out some things here, but you get the drift.

[sabrewolf]

the only thing i'm not sure is where trade routes some in. i assume they add to the base culture. but what is with the harbours? does that 50% add pre-multipliers? if so, it has a huge effect on well equipped cities.
and i also have noticed that not always do my best+biggest cities get the best trade routes. in fact, some mediocre cities "steal" away trade routes from better ones sometimes... does anybody know how this is influenced?

[Finsch]

And baseTrade is only the sum of all trade generated on tiles, so banks and markets do not have any effect on these?


Or is it
effGold = (baseGold + absGold[specialistGold+someWondersGold+shrineGold])
*multiplierGold[marketMult+bankMult+grocerMult+someWondersMult]


But in any of these cases: Building a market, bank ... will only increase my effGold, not my baseGold, so that these buildings will not increase my science/culture in any way?

[sabrewolf]

oh, sorry... i forgot the brackets!

and to your last sentence: correct!
the only way banks increase your science is that with many banks you may be able to support 10% more science

[Finsch]

In this case it would be great, if science, culture and gold rate could be set for every city individually - one might like to run 50% science in the citys that have all economic buildings like banks and markets, whereas 100% science are the best settings for citys with librarys and observatorys and such.

This means, when running 100% science, you have to use specialists in order to make use of your markets.

[Quillan]

It looks to me like markets/banks do affect the pure gold income from specialist and shrines. I've had a couple of games where I was able to run 100% science and still make close to 100 gold/turn after paying maintenance.

[sabrewolf]

which makes me wish for further possibilities of getting gold coins. for a wide spread religion with a shrine in your city can give you dozens if not close to a hundred of gold. which multiplied by banks, markets, etc double and with wallstreet triple.
even in a super-food city, you won't be able to get much more than 5-6 merchants which means something around 20-24 base gold. that may give you 60-72 gold in total (which covers much of the civics costs and maybe part of the maintenance), but you fully give up productive power in that high potential city and still have nothing close to a religious centre.

is there any solution to have 100% science without involving one or more of following options:
- a wide spread religion
- shïtloads of merchants
- trading all resources for gpt instead of other resources
?

[mgdpublic]

Strange. I'm running at 100% science the majority of the time in the majority of my games and I don't think I'm doing anything special. Even at 100% science I often have gold coming in which I guess is from trade routes or is that computed in base gold? Do banks and markets effect trade route gold? If not, I typically have alot of useless banks.

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by mgdpublic
Strange. I'm running at 100% science the majority of the time in the majority of my games and I don't think I'm doing anything special. Even at 100% science I often have gold coming in which I guess is from trade routes or is that computed in base gold? Do banks and markets effect trade route gold? If not, I typically have alot of useless banks.

I've been running close to or at 100% science only when I've sold tech to raise money to allow me to deficit spend.

My take is that banks are worthless unless there are religious shrines or specialists as Quillan points outs. I build Markets and Grocers for happy faces and health, when I need more, but not for gold, since I'm usually maxed out on science.

In Civ3, I used to stop researching after ironworking and buy techs, until about the Industrial era, so markets and banks were key buildings. I haven't tried that yet in Civ4. Maybe that would work too, but the AI is not always willing to sell.

My approach is usually to research the tech paths that the AI doesn't to allow trading to stay up with them.

It seems like there ought to be an optimal point, say 50% science, 10% culture, where the remaining 40% can be invested. With markets, grocers, and banks, this 40% doubles to become 80%, which can be used for various purposes, buying tech, upgrades, etc.

Many ways to play. I'll have to try them all.

[seebs]

So far as I can tell, markets/banks/grocers increase gold; if you have all three, your gold (from specialists, buildings, or trade not spent on luxuries and science) is doubled.

But I can find no way but experimentation to tell gold from trade in descriptions. I really think they shoulda used distinct icons.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
which makes me wish for further possibilities of getting gold coins. for a wide spread religion with a shrine in your city can give you dozens if not close to a hundred of gold. which multiplied by banks, markets, etc double and with wallstreet triple.
even in a super-food city, you won't be able to get much more than 5-6 merchants which means something around 20-24 base gold. that may give you 60-72 gold in total (which covers much of the civics costs and maybe part of the maintenance), but you fully give up productive power in that high potential city and still have nothing close to a religious centre.

is there any solution to have 100% science without involving one or more of following options:
- a wide spread religion
- shïtloads of merchants
- trading all resources for gpt instead of other resources
?

I have a city that gives me well over 150 gold with a tax rate of 20%. : )

Spiral Minaret does wonders when it is put into a Holy City that has Wall Street. 4 wine squares don't hurt.

You don't need merchants. I just put every extra Great Prophet that I get into there. Thanks to that it has a pretty good production too (+2 Prod per great prophet).

This sort of scheme is THE money solution in Civ IV. Though typically I only manage Great Prophets, Wall Street, and a Holy City in the same place.--This place in my game actually is a double Holy City, but Judaism hasn't spread very much so the income is very small (I just haven't had the time with all the wars!)*

-Drachasor

*and the crashes, this is on a large map that I've been using to solve my crashing problem.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by seebs
So far as I can tell, markets/banks/grocers increase gold; if you have all three, your gold (from specialists, buildings, or trade not spent on luxuries and science) is doubled.

But I can find no way but experimentation to tell gold from trade in descriptions. I really think they shoulda used distinct icons.

Someone in file creation posted a change which does this. There are a couple actually. It is nice, but usually you can tell what is being increased. Commerce you get from squares and trade routes and nothing increases it. Buildings can increase gold, but not commerce.

-Drachasor