OCC (One City Challenge) at Monarch and above

[solo]

Originally posted by Diadem
How does this game work with wonders getting obsolete by the way. In the old civs if anybody discovered a tech the wonder went obsolete. But in this game, I've never seen any message about wonders of mine going obsolete. Do I get to keep the Great Library even if others research Scientific Method while I don't?

Yes, you get to keep the GL until you know Scientific Method. Sounds like a good game brewing here, and finding stone nearby was a real boost. I think as much a jump as possible is needed on SS construction and a beeline for Rocketry looks like the best bet. Good luck!

[Diadem]

Well I pretty much beelined for rocketry, but I still got beaten in the space race near the end.

Two reasons. One my own fault, one bad luck. Once I started building spaceship components I slowed my tech and researched some older stuff etc. Then after I while I suddenly couldn't build SS components anymore, all the ones I knew where build. Cost me like 15 turns worth of building...

My worst problem though was having no horses, no copper, no iron, no oil, no coal, no uranium for the entire game. I did find alumium, but that's it.

The best sea unit I could build was a Galleon. That's pretty frustrating, when you're researching fusion. No small surprise that my sea force was whiped off the map when the enemy finally declared war.

So with only 10 turns to go (not enough for me to complete SS) Mansa Musa won a space race victory, while alexander was about to start attacking my city.

Why did my city stop working all sea tiles the moment alexander declared war by the way? That's a bit weird, I suddenly had 20 negative food...


Lessons:
1) Beeline for rocketry faster
2) Forget about environementalism. State property is better
3) Don't delay in getting the other SS techs once you have rocketry
4) Find a way to get only Great Prophets and Great Engineers.

[amicus curiae]

If you have aluminum and stone that should be good enough. You don't really need any resources to build units. Railroads are nice for the hills if you can get em.

solo - I did get globe theater before civil service. Usually you can build drama pretty easily along the road to civil service without much detouring. I think it is worth it.

In my last game I went for civil service, then pacifism. I lost the space race while I was still building the first spaceship parts (I think SS casing). I have a long way to go but I know there is room for improvement. I also tried a non-coastal city in this last game. I guess that doesn't work so well...

I think a key problem for me is figuring out what to do after I have civil service, and pacifism. I seem to get to this same point in every game without a clear strategy.

[Thomas Hobbes]

Interesting thread, thanks!

One short question:
Do you use your military for defensive purposes only, or can you use some fast units and ships to raze important AI cities (i.e. on archipelago where you might have a quick access to the AI's capitals)?
Is conquering and razing cities even allowed?

Thanks

[solo]

Diadem,

I have had some success using specialists to steer GP production towards the types I want. Too bad you got a bit side-tracked not being able to continue building SS parts. I thought you had a good shot at it from what I read in your previous post. Since the patch, those increases in SS part costs have added another handicap to the OCC player.

Amicus,

I also go for the Globe Theater first, and then stop at Literature before going to Civil Service, if I have a Great Engineer waiting to build the Great Library. After Civil Service, I go for Education for the university boosts, and then am thinking that a push must be made right away to Rocketry.

In the middle of the game, a lot depends on which way the AI are going too, and whether they are fighting a lot of wars amongst themselves.


One problem that recurs for us is that in each game we always seem to lack access to a resource or two that would be particularly helpful. For this reason, I tried one game using the Balanced map option, but was plagued during this one by AI attacks. However, I did have the resources around that I needed.

[solo]

Originally posted by Thomas Hobbes
Interesting thread, thanks!

One short question:
Do you use your military for defensive purposes only, or can you use some fast units and ships to raze important AI cities (i.e. on archipelago where you might have a quick access to the AI's capitals)?
Is conquering and razing cities even allowed?

Thanks

I'm usually too busy with research and buildings to mount much of an offensive in OCC, but maybe some others have tried this and can tell you how they made out.

Sure, I believe it's possible to conquer and raze. I'd like to see that. An OCC win by conquest at the higher levels!

I know that my expanding culture has automatically absorbed and razed nearby minor AI cities in some OCC games.

[khearn]

Conquest-only OCC

Originally posted by solo

Sure, I believe it's possible to conquer and raze. I'd like to see that. An OCC win by conquest at the higher levels!

I was thinking about a OCC game with only conquest victory allowed the other day. I think it'd be pretty tough on any level, unless you had a small map. Every time you raze a city, I would think that other civs would rush in to build a new city in the open space. And even if you manage to cripple the other civs enough that they aren't filling in behind your army, the barbs would fill in, and then you'd have to deal with them.

It's certainly winnable in certain circumstances, such as a duel map with one opponent. But I think the bigger the map gets, the tougher it would be.

Map type would also have a big effect. Pangea would be the easiest, since you could be sure of getting to all of your opponents (but the barbs might be nasty). On a non-pangea map, you would absolutely have to have a coastal start, or you'd never be able to reach some opponents. A continents map could start you out well away from the coast, which would be a Bad Thing.

It would be fun to see how big of a map and how tough of a level a conquest-only OCC could be won at.

[amicus curiae]

solo - I also like to go for Great Library as soon as an engineer is available to build it. That is key. I will try Universities followed by a direct beeline for rocketry. See how that goes...

I think another key is getting the ai to be at war as much as possible, especially later in the game. I don't know what the best way to accomplish this would be.

[Diadem]

What about the GP techs? Do you beeline for them?

Another point to consider is techs that upgrade improvements (watermills can become quite good if you have the right techs) or allows you to build railroad. Those might be worth it.

All in all, you won't escape having to research most of the techs I guess.

[solo]

I just tried another game on an Archipelago map as the Chinese (Ind,Fin). I got the three early wonders: the Pyramids and both GL's. Having access to Marble helped a bit, since I quickly followed those with the National Epic. Afterwards a beeline to Civil Service and then onto Education. I got a good number of GP's this game, and not so many useless artists as usual.

After Education, I tried the new idea of a beeline to Rocketry, and as I picked up techs along the way, I held them back from the AI this game instead of trading them. Instead, I decided to research the techs I could have traded for, and this went quickly enough to get me to Robotics after I had completed Apollo and 5 Casings. But then the trouble started. I was able to rush the Space Elevator with 2 Great Engineers and just when things were looking pretty good, I was attacked twice (not too much damage, I just lost a few citizens) while trying to complete my ship.

To make a long story short, I came up about 3 SS parts short, before Catherine was able to catch up and out-produce me. Had I been able to get access to any Alumium or Copper, or had I been able to trade for Coal or Steel earlier than I did, I might have had a good chance of being first. I think with pre-patch parts costs, I would have been able to complete my SS first.

It's too bad, because the starting position looked promising, and my city was able to control quite a variety of resources to use for health or to trade for it. This was the first game where health was not such a problem.

One thing that amazed me this game was how quickly the AI make up ground after the middle of the game and easily pass me later when acquiring the SS techs. It sure seems like they get an extra boost after being so far behind me, but I guess they trade amongst themselves and split the research chores that way. Still, one moment I'm way ahead. Then I start Apollo, and they attack, catch up and pass me before I can blink!

I'll attach the start below. It's given me my best result so far on Emperor, and perhaps someone else might be able to improve on my effort and turn it into a win.

[Thoth]

Originally posted by amicus curiae


I think you are mistaken. I think shrines generate gold, not trade. So it just goes strait into gold rather than research and is not modified by banks.

Close, but not quite. Gold from shrines, specialists ect is added to the commerce allocated to cash and is then multiplied by Markets, Banks and Grocers. Note that Markets ect only multiply gold, they don't affect commerce allocated to research.

This is different from the bonus provided by Beaurocracy (sp?)which provides a 50% bonus to raw commerce before slider allocations and before building multipliers.


Hope this made things a little clearer.

[Yosh]

So then, as confirmed by Thoth, getting the Hydra (found 3 religions or more in your OCC city) would be a viable strategy... spread the missionaries around after you've built all the buildings you need and while you're waiting for techs to come in - a decent production city can spit out a missionary every 2 turns or so; getting your neighbors to convert early on is easy if you corner the market on religions, and after they've converted, gift them a missionary or two, and they'll spread it on their own!

[amicus curiae]

Yosh - That is true but it would not increase science which is really the key to OCC. You would have more gold sitting around to rush buildings with, but that is not as important in my opinion as pyramids and great library.

solo - I tried a game with your save last night. It was going fine until the ai built a city right by my borders. A few turns later that city got taken over by barbarians and then I had a constant stream of barbarians coming after me. I was forced to focus on military way to much and I gave up the game shortly after. Mabye I will try it again tonight. Is that game with a small map? I would like to win a standard size continent map game on immortal. That would be the ultimate challenge to me at this point.

[solo]

It was a standard size map. Too bad about the barbs.

I tried it again, too, and was heartened to find Copper this time in my area, which was revealed later in the game. This must have been one of those latent resources that have a "chance" of appearing where there is a mine.

This game I made a point of withholding Educaton from the AI, and built up a good tech lead in the middle of the game. On the tech advisor screen, my techs available for trades almost filled up the row next to my icon. I got to Rocketry much sooner than the previous game, and sat on Artillery, refusing to give it up or trade it.

However, I lacked Aluminum, Iron and Coal until I was on my second Casing. When I finally could trade for these, they cost me and arm and leg and I was unable to afford the Space Elevator. I also had to interrupt the SS construction to build Ironworks, a Factory and Coal Plant, which I couldn't do beforehand. Meanwhile, I was attacked, too!

When beelining to Rocketry one side effect of denying the AI techs is that they will be slower to Industrialism (Aluminum) & Steam Power (Coal), and will take longer until they have mined extras that can be traded to me.

For me this meant progress on the first few Casings was glacial, and by the time I acquired the needed resources, the AI caught up and surpassed me again. I ended up doing a little worse than in the previous game.

Too bad, as I got off to a very good start, even snagging the Colossus as another early wonder. I was first to all the mid-game key techs that gave free stuff, too. It looks to me that Balanced maps may necessary in OCC to give the human player a decent chance at Emperor and above.

[amicus curiae]

Does balanced maps give you all resources nearby? I thought it just balanced the starting locations. In any event I think I will try tonight for an ideal starting location. As much as possible anyways...

I think start locations can have 4 resources within the city radius. I will look for one with clams and pigs to start. I don't like starting locations with sugar or wine or anything that takes a long time to develop. I think if you get a coast with pigs/cows and clam/fish and no other resources you could be in good shape. I think with only two resources you are likely to have a later resource appear. Although this could just be my imagination.

anyways, what would be the ideal starting location in your mind?