Trading techs

[Velociryx]

When tech trading, I use the following rules of thumb:

* Never trade a tech that has a wonder I want associated with it until I've got a clear headstart ON that wonder.

* Trade the same tech multiple times. I tend to go deep into the tech tree, rather than spending lots of time wading in the shallows. I'll research the bare minimum that I need to get up and running, then go deep, relying on trading slightly later on to make up the techs I missed. Once you have a "hot commodity" tech that lots of people want, you can, at the start of your turn, shop it around for just silly kinds of profits. I've worked deals where Alphabet or Metal Casting have netted me half a dozen other techs (far more in their combined cost that Metal Casting initially cost me to research). The advantage: Each individual civ gets +1 tech, while I wind up with +6 techs. Everybody wins...it's just that I win bigger.

* Trade techs with neighbors *strategically* to begin cultivating long term "friend-foe" relationships. Study the game and see who's ticked off at whom....who's likely to be attacked...ignore these folks and build up the others. Especially useful if the civ on everyone's $hit-List happens to be your next door neighbor, cos then, when the declaration of war comes, you can join the dog-pile and get in on the action, claiming a few juicy cities for yourself!

-=Vel=-

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Velociryx
* Trade the same tech multiple times.
(snip)
I've worked deals where Alphabet or Metal Casting have netted me half a dozen other techs (far more in their combined cost that Metal Casting initially cost me to research). The advantage: Each individual civ gets +1 tech, while I wind up with +6 techs. Everybody wins...it's just that I win bigger.

Vel, I would consider this true, for all but one tech: alphabet. Somehow, the AI will never favour it, and can pass it for a very long time after you discovered it. If you don't trade it away, the AIs won't be able to trade amongst themselves. This is way more important than the direct gain alphabet gives you.

The AIs don't trade, so have to research everything. Tech is going slower, which means you can have an advantage (even at higher tech levels, you can outresearch the AI until they get Alphabet)

But also: one deep tech can give you a couple of techs on a path. Normally you have to trade the tech in one turn, after which it will get distributed amongst the AI. This means you can't trade CoL for bronze+IW: one requires the other, so yu have to wait 2 turns. In many cases, in those 2 turns the gap of opportunity has closed, or at least has become a bit narrower.

Except when you've don't trade alphabet. You can decide when you give a tech to an AI. By trading your new techs to 2 friends, and deliberately not trading to one who's territory your after, you can keep him in the dark. When you trade alphabet to even one AI this stops, or at least is no guarantee anymore.

DeepO

[joncnunn]

What I'd like to know is the gold value of what the AI wants for a given tech. [Assuming I don't have thousands of dollars in cash in the treasury]

For most early techs, it's 1:1 on Prince, but there's some specific techs in which it's much higher, particularly later on. (Drama seems to be 2:1, Railroad seems to be between 30 and 50% higher)

[BigWilly1974]

I'm finding on Monarch level that after the early/mid game, the AIs don't want to trade their techs unless you have something they really, really want.

Are others finding this?

[BigWilly1974]

On a related note...

In games where I've been competing in a tech race with another AI, I've been reluctant to trade a key tech to other AIs for fear that as soon as I end my turn, they'll then trade to the front runner AI that I want to keep that key tech from.

Am I being paranoid? I was always under the impression in Civ 3 that once you got a tech that others could use, you traded it ASAP or risk some other AI discovering it and passing it around and you get nothing in return.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by BigWilly1974
I'm finding on Monarch level that after the early/mid game, the AIs don't want to trade their techs unless you have something they really, really want.

Are others finding this?

Depends on how far you are in front, leader personality, and how many civs already know the tech in question. I'd guess it's difficulty depending too.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by BigWilly1974
On a related note...

In games where I've been competing in a tech race with another AI, I've been reluctant to trade a key tech to other AIs for fear that as soon as I end my turn, they'll then trade to the front runner AI that I want to keep that key tech from.

Am I being paranoid? I was always under the impression in Civ 3 that once you got a tech that others could use, you traded it ASAP or risk some other AI discovering it and passing it around and you get nothing in return.

There is one problem here: the runaway civ will be the best to deal with as he'll have the most techs available earliest.

So either you trade with him and both of you get more distance between you and the rest, or you try to keep him up the same level as the other AIs.

However, the best civ is always best to trade with, not only for you but also for the other AIs. Simply trading away a monopoly tech to a minor AI is risky: he will use every chance he gets to trade with the leader. So

- don't trade your monopoly tech away to a minor, when there is a tech both you and the leader have, and the minor has not.

- don't trade away your monopoly tech if the leader has a tech both you and the minor have not. However, if you want the minor to get that tech from the leader, this might be a solution: give him a tech he can use to buy what you want from the leader. As now at least 2 civs have the tech, it will be easier up for trade.

- don't give one minor something another minor has not, when the other has something the one has not (obvious, but you don't always spot this easily from the trade screen). The idea is to limit trade afterwards: if you need to trade a tech, leaving another trade open later, it might be a good idea to give that tech for free to the 3rd party. At least #2 won't benefit, and you improve the relation with #3.

DeepO

[Shaka II]

Originally posted by DeepO
- don't give one minor something another minor has not, when the other has something the one has not (obvious, but you don't always spot this easily from the trade screen). The idea is to limit trade afterwards: if you need to trade a tech, leaving another trade open later, it might be a good idea to give that tech for free to the 3rd party. At least #2 won't benefit, and you improve the relation with #3.

DeepO

So if you decide to trade to minor Civs, perhaps it is best to sell or trade it to all, and even gift it those that don't have anything to offer to help reduce the tech swapping?

I also notice that Civs will pay quite a bit of money for techs, if they have it, so often it is best to wait until their bank accounts are flush before you sell. It's nice when there is some spread in technological develpment, as older techs can bring in good money. When it's an even horse race, it often gets into a viscious cycle of tech swapping. I usually choose a tech path that the AI is not, so I can maximize my chances of trading after I make new discoveries. Sometimes it leads deep into the tech tree, like right now, I have chemistry and grenadiers, and no one else does, and I'm not trading with anyone, until the Persans are out of the game anyway.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Shaka II


So if you decide to trade to minor Civs, perhaps it is best to sell or trade it to all, and even gift it those that don't have anything to offer to help reduce the tech swapping?

Not exactly. But I will always have hierarchies if you wish.

Tech A is distributed to Civ 1,2,3
Tech B is known byCiv 1,2 but not 3 (and you don't know it either)
Tech C you traded with Civ 1.

If you get tech D, trading it to 3 is suicide. It will take the opportunity and trade it with Civ 1 and 2 for tech B and C.

Trading D to Civ 2 is also not working. You can only trade it with Civ 1.

however, Civ 2 or 3 might have a tech E and are willing to trade, a tech E which Civ 1 doesn't know. In which case, you trade the tech D from 2 or 3, but you also make sure you give whatever tech they miss and Civ 1 has (C). If you don't have that tech Civ 1 has, you trade the new tech to both 2 and 1, giving it for free even. Thus, you will keep 1 and 2 from doing a trade, giving you the benefits and not them.

Normally, you won't do this with Civ 1: they are fartest ahead, and you don't want to help them. Which means you want to trade with Civ 2 and 3, and make sure that Civ 1 doesn't gain too much. Getting Civ 2 up to speed by gifting things might be the best thing you can to limit Civ 1's push to glory.

Also, it will deminish the distance in techs between all parties, making trades much more likely. Once civ 3 would be too far ahead, they won't even trade you a tech long outdated. Gifting techs until they get closer might open that up for you.

DeepO

[BigWilly1974]

I'd never even thought about gifting techs to level the playing field. Seems so counter-intuitive, but I understand the point you're trying to make. Parity encourages more trading.

I'd hate to find myself giving techs to neighbours to try and level the tech race only to have them turn against me.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by BigWilly1974
I'd never even thought about gifting techs to level the playing field. Seems so counter-intuitive, but I understand the point you're trying to make. Parity encourages more trading.

I'd hate to find myself giving techs to neighbours to try and level the tech race only to have them turn against me.

That's where choices come in: sometimes you absolutely want to void levelling the field. Sometimes it's the best you can do. It all depends... but it's good to know several options before deciding how you're going to play the game.

DeepO