Jaguars

[DeepO]

Originally posted by DrSpike
I don't think Rome as a whole is imbalanced though.

It used to be, and the choice was made to have a strong UU instead of the other possibilities.

DeepO

[Blake]

Axe with Shock has a strength of:
5 * 1.1 * 1.75 = 9.625

Praet with Shock has a strength of:
8 * 1.1 * 1.25 = 11

In game though, the shock bonuses cancel so it's actually the default fight of:

Axe:
5 * 1.5 = 7.5

Praet:
8

In short, anything Axes can do, Praets can do better.

[Blake]

Originally posted by DeepO

Axe = 5*1.85 = 9.25 indeed.

As to Praetorians being the best counter for Axes: not even near. Bring in the shock - horse archers please!

DeepO

Oops, I was making the statement "Anything axes can do, Praets can do better". Yes, there are slightly more ideal counters to axes, BUT BUT BUT, it's still better to use Praets as they defeat every possible combination of unit, NOTHING can defend a city from city raider praets, nothing can cost effectively kill a praet without lopsided promotions.
edit: Until crossbowmen. But "within the era" goes without saying, right?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Blake
Axe with Shock has a strength of:
5 * 1.1 * 1.75 = 9.625

Shock only comes after Combat I. So your factor needs to be 1.85, not 1.1*1.75.

Praet with Shock has a strength of:
8 * 1.1 * 1.25 = 11

In game though, the shock bonuses cancel so it's actually the default fight of:

Axe:
5 * 1.5 = 7.5

Praet:
8

In short, anything Axes can do, Praets can do better.

You are too limited in seeing where Praetorians are being used for: they do not exist to deal with Axes. You can't compare them either: Praetorians do not replace the horse archers, which, shock promoted again, get a bonus of 6*1.35 = 8.1 vs a Combat I axe of 5.5.

It's far too dangerous to make local comparisons like this, it's too depending on situation, especially the availability of resources and the appropriate tech. Which is exactly why Jaguars are so powerful even if their stats are lower: there is no risk, you don't need resources, and getting to IW will always give you a swordsmen unit. Going to IW as the Romans does not mean you will get Praetorians. So they can be a bit stronger.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Blake


Oops, I was making the statement "Anything axes can do, Praets can do better". Yes, there are slightly more ideal counters to axes, BUT BUT BUT, it's still better to use Praets as they defeat every possible combination of unit, NOTHING can defend a city from city raider praets, nothing can cost effectively kill a praet without lopsided promotions.
edit: Until crossbowmen. But "within the era" goes without saying, right?

until cats you mean

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, and "within the era": crossbowmen are only one tech away from praetorians, while you can build cats about as quickly as you can build praetorians (as you don't need to find, settle, and improve a resource in order to build them). It's all about which choices you make: knowing the weak and strong points of your units is very good, playing towards them is even better.

DeepO

[Blake]

You are too limited in seeing where Praetorians are being used for: they do not exist to deal with Axes.

They exist to deal with EVERYTHING . There may be slightly more ideal specific counters for *romans* to build, but against *stacks* throwing praets is always the best bet. What I'm saying is there is no reason at all for Romans to build axes (if they have iron), or really even bother with any other counter-units, as Praets can defend against everything of the era. (a praet has defense 8... a spearman has defense 8 against horses *only*, which are you going to use?)

The way bonuses add and negate actually results in more Praet uberness. Take a praet with combat 2 and Formation, vs a spear with Combat 2 and formation.

Praet:
8 * 1.2 * 1.25 = 12

Spear:
4 * 1.2 * 2.25 = 10.8

The same is true of things like Shock on a praet vs shock on an axe.

edit: Oops, there I go pretending like I know what I'm talking about. I have the right principle though, the effect is actually more pronounced:

Praet:
8 * 1.45 = 11.6

Spear:
4 * 2.45 = 9.8

I should be banned form posting at 4am lol! But I'm still right that Praets absolutely rule.

[Blake]

Oh, and "within the era": crossbowmen are only one tech away from praetorians, while you can build cats about as quickly as you can build praetorians (as you don't need to find, settle, and improve a resource in order to build them).

Just oneee more post.

Yes I'm aware that xbows are pretty close, especially with an Oracle strat... but... well... that's the oracle.

I believe that in MP a Praet rush would be really quite hard to defeat, even if you knew it was coming. Maybe you could fortify your cities, but you're going to be ruined regardless because you can't counter those suckers as cheaply as they can be produced so they'll be running amok. I'm not sure if even crossbowmen would do the trick, they cost 50% more and only have a relative strength of 9, quickly eaten away by the Praets higher base strength. I mean, a xbow attacking a Praet in the open is damn close. AND, if you literally rush Xbows, you DON'T have iron working! Sure, pop a great merchant and upgrade some archers and you could defeat praets with style, but praets are going to make anyone work HARD to defeat them.

[DrSpike]

I'll just add that relying on shock isn't always a good plan. You need 2 levels and this means winning fights or getting to feud/theology.

Facing the Romans in MP I just defend with axes. Yeah they'll get shock if they survive. You have to really careful taking the attack to them, though woodsman axes carefully moving through forest/jungle can sure as hell be annoying.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Blake

They exist to deal with EVERYTHING . There may be slightly more ideal specific counters for *romans* to build, but against *stacks* throwing praets is always the best bet. What I'm saying is there is no reason at all for Romans to build axes (if they have iron), or really even bother with any other counter-units, as Praets can defend against everything of the era. (a praet has defense 8... a spearman has defense 8 against horses *only*, which are you going to use?)

Sure, so this is the strategy for Praetorians: have one-dimensional stacks, which get their differences only from the bonusses you choose. However, put me next to Rome in SP, and Rome won't come near me with their Praetorians. And this because by using combined arms specifically focused to deal with Praetorians, I can deny them their advantage. They don't have the choice: they only have one good unit, and focussing on it seems the best way... it also limits them.

Please note strength bonuses is *multiplicative*. For example a unit with combat2 and shock is 50% stronger than melee units, not 45% stronger.

Yeah, after posting, I remembered I was wrong. The same happens to city attack: promotions that are type specific are divided instead of multiplied. It's not quite like you post either, their bonus doesn't multiply on the axes' side, it's being subtracted on the praetorian side (in reality it's not 50% more, but 33% less, so to speak). This becomes an issue when taking into account different promotions on the defenders side.

Not that that matter to this discussion

The way bonuses add and negate actually results in more Praet uberness. Take a praet with combat 2 and Formation, vs a spear with Combat 2 and formation.

Praet:
8 * 1.2 * 1.25 = 12

Spear:
4 * 1.2 * 2.25 = 10.8

The same is true of things like Shock on a praet vs shock on an axe.

Well, to counter this, the system with subtracting promotions on the other side is done. I think. These type specific bonusses, and collateral damage are two parts of the combat system I'm still collecting info on.

However, you conviently 'forget' to mention that axes are always good against praetorians, even if rushed in a city without barracks. Praetorians need 3 promotions, or at least 10 XP to get there... and this is where Epic shines: on Epic you will get more promotions relative to Normal or Quick.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Blake

They exist to deal with EVERYTHING . There may be slightly more ideal specific counters for *romans* to build, but against *stacks* throwing praets is always the best bet. What I'm saying is there is no reason at all for Romans to build axes (if they have iron), or really even bother with any other counter-units, as Praets can defend against everything of the era. (a praet has defense 8... a spearman has defense 8 against horses *only*, which are you going to use?)

Well, I was just trying to proof you wrong here. Indeed, Praetorians give one-dimensional stacks, and you are tempted to only use these and not other units. This same can happen with war elephants: get them early, and they're like tanks: they'll work against anything, and only have one very specific counter which needs to be researched and built (pikes). That does not mean they are the only choice: specific unit types are still better in specific tasks than elephants or praetorians are.

And that's the real thing. You can get superb units focusing on just one type of unit, if you divert the stack into specific tasks/promotions. You need a medic: are you going to spend 5 XP from a praetorian on that, or are you going to take an early warrior which got promoted by barbs? You need something to fight off the axes. Are you going to spend 10 XP on shock? You need something to fight mounted units (elephants mostly). Another praetorian spending 10 XP?

Doing so, your stack grows. Of course you also still want to have city attack praetorians, so counting all these different types, you're fastly getting to stacks of 8 praetorians (4 city attackers), whereas a sword player has stacks of 9-10, 6 swords and support types. The cost for the sword player is lower both in hammer count and in XP spent (spears and pikes already have the mounted bonus, so they can get woodsman or medic promotions too)

Romans don't need to have all types, obviously, but it's not true that they are more efficient in simply building praetorians everywhere.

Re: what's best against stacks: cats, cats, and even more cats. After enough cats have hit, your city defenders can pick of stacks, and city defenders are always in desperate need of XP. Jummie... a strength 3 praetorian with city attack II... ideal XP-snack for my strength 3 archer (which will win in about 75% of cases, unpromoted)

edit: Oops, there I go pretending like I know what I'm talking about.

You have no idea how many times this happens to me... it's because of trying to explain something, that you gain insight in the matter, and find mistakes in your own reasoning

I have the right principle though, the effect is actually more pronounced:

Praet:
8 * 1.45 = 11.6

Spear:
4 * 2.45 = 9.8

I should be banned form posting at 4am lol! But I'm still right that Praets absolutely rule.

ASFAIU, this last reasoning is going the wrong way. There's something in the system dealing with this kind of degeneration of type-specific promotions, although it is correct for other bonusses: adding a 10% bonus is relatively more important if it is the first combat I promotion instead of the 3rd promotion, after situation-specific bonusses (fortified, city defend).

Oh, and in the weekends I've put my limit at 7am: after that time, I don't post anymore, I just lurk. Over the years I found out that what I'm writing this early doesn't hold a lot of sense, to put it mildly

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Blake

Just oneee more post.

Yes I'm aware that xbows are pretty close, especially with an Oracle strat... but... well... that's the oracle.

I believe that in MP a Praet rush would be really quite hard to defeat, even if you knew it was coming. Maybe you could fortify your cities, but you're going to be ruined regardless because you can't counter those suckers as cheaply as they can be produced so they'll be running amok. I'm not sure if even crossbowmen would do the trick, they cost 50% more and only have a relative strength of 9, quickly eaten away by the Praets higher base strength. I mean, a xbow attacking a Praet in the open is damn close. AND, if you literally rush Xbows, you DON'T have iron working! Sure, pop a great merchant and upgrade some archers and you could defeat praets with style, but praets are going to make anyone work HARD to defeat them.

xbows unpromoted aren't much good... but add a couple of first strikes to them, and boy can they spoil a nicely set up system! The monkeywrench unit of the early game... I can't play them well, but what I've seen so far they are extremely deep units.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by DrSpike
I'll just add that relying on shock isn't always a good plan. You need 2 levels and this means winning fights or getting to feud/theology.

Facing the Romans in MP I just defend with axes. Yeah they'll get shock if they survive. You have to really careful taking the attack to them, though woodsman axes carefully moving through forest/jungle can sure as hell be annoying.

I haven't played MP yet, although I'm hoping to try a game soonish. But woodsman promoted axes can be great in SP too.

DeepO

[Derelict]

Just wanted to correct (or at least clarify, in case some one mentioned this and I missed it somehow), but axemen are most definitely a counter to Prats. The reason is that the Shock promotion is not additive to the power of the axemen but subtractive from the power of the prats.

A straight Axe vs. Prat is 5.0 vs. 5.3 (Prats favor 51.3%)

A C1 Axe vs. Prat is 5.5 vs. 5.3 (Axe favor 50.8%)

A C1 + Shock Axe vs. Prat is 5.5 vs 4.6 (Axe favor 54.7%)

Effectively the Shock (and the +50% standard axe bonus) reduces the opponent to a level comparable, or less (w/cumulative promotions (C1+Shock+Axe bonus)) than the unit is normally. However, this is when the axe is on the offense/attack against a defending (non fortified Prat).

When a prat attacks it *raises* the axemans power (rather than lowers the prats) which actually gives the prat a slight advantage than when on defense. Put technically:

A straight Prat vs Axe is 8.0 vs 7.5 (Prats favor 51.7%)

A straight Prat vs. C1 Axe is 8.0 vs 8.0 (50/50)

A straight Prat vs. C1 + Shock Axe is 8.0 vs 9.3 (Axe favor 53.6%)

Even still, despite the slight difference between an attacking or defending prat, the Axemen bonus, particularly when combined with promotions, makes them a feasible counter.

What they are, really, are swordsmen who do not need axemen escorts AND are more effective in attacking cities to boot (a sword is 6.6 vs city, a prat--assuming it is attacking a non-melee unit--is 8.0).

EDIT: Well, actually a swordsman lowers the defending units power rather than obtaining a +10% bonus to its attack power (i.e., it is NOT 6.6 as mentioned above). Even still, Prats are more capable of taking a city than a regular swordsman because their base is so much higher than the regular swordsman's city attack bonus of +10%.

Considering the cost of a prat is the same as a sword--and quite relative to that of an axeman--they can be used as a be all melee and city attack unit. An opposing player must field both axe and sword units to accomplish the same thing that a Roman player can do with the production of a single unit.

That is where the UU pays off. You effectively force an opponent to split production for two specialties (an anti-melee/anti-prat production cycle or a city offensive production cycle).

It is also outpaced, not by crossbowman, but by macemen (against whom it faces an 8.0 vs 12.0 (offense) or 5.3 vs 8.0 (defense). Of course, if you are the Japanese, the Samurai will have that much more of an edge since they have the same odds but 2 first strikes to boot, not to mention an automatic combat I if not more. It should be mentioned that it is a lot more tedious to get samurai for the Japanese player than it is Prats for the Roman--would make for a good match though, as one becomes dominant only after they survive the best the other can throw at em'.

[cal_01]

Er, to be a bit (off-)topic here, here's what I got from this thread:

Jaguar Pros:
- don't need Iron or Copper
- semi-"Raider"

Jaguar Cons:
- More hammers
- Axemen deal more damage vs melee

One point I saw above was that Jaguars can barely beat Archers. Well, isn't that the point of Civ4 combat, where we're not supposed to be able to take cities with equal armies?

IMO, this guy can be archer bait; keep attacking the city and hit the archers low enough so your other units can punch through.