Coordinated Wonder Chop

[Hakai]

One of the new features in Civ 4 is hammer(shield) overflow carryover from the previously completed task to the next. This combined with the Industrious trait and the wonder production bonuses from Marble, Stone, and Copper for the various wonders leads to an opportunity to use this bonus to carryover a large number of shields to your next project. This becomes even more important when you consider that normally chopping trees will add 30 hammers to the nearest city. This translates into 48 hammers to a wonder when you have the industrious trait and the necessary production resource. The point is not that you can finish a wonder more quickly, while that is a valid strategy, but that you can effectively transfer this bonus production rate to your next project.

The strategy is to let a wonder naturally build until 2 or 3 turns left (2 if you are using 2 workers per forest 3 if you are using 1). Then chopping down as many forests surrounding the wonder city as you possibly can simultaneously. This will lead to a massive influx of hammers, that can then be used on your next project. This process seems to be somewhat lossy(10 hammers per carryover?), so I would recommend spending them on a large project such as a second wonder or expensive building. Though for warmonger two or three 1-turn military units can be worth the slight loss.

In the screenshot below the overflow is 148 beakers(from 3 forest chops), or roughly 15 turns of the cities base production. When building the Parthenon as Gandhi with marble available. It should be noted that the carryover hammers are not modified by any bonuses when being applied to the next project.



The best leader for this trick in my opinion is Gandhi as fast workers let you move into a forest and chop in the same turn meaning it will cost you minimal worker down time.

[PeaSoup]

That's definitely useful for cranking out extra shields (ok, they are really called hammers, but you called yours "beakers" ), but I'm starting to keep more forests around for the health boost (0.5 per) and for the eventual lumber mill + railroad's hidden +1 hammer bonus.

eg; a mined grass/hill will provide 2 food and 3 hammers, but a railroaded forest with lumber mill on grass/hill will give you 2 food and 4 hammers.

In the early game, I'm finding myself chopping more forests than I keep, but after replaceable parts and railroads come around, it becomes a no brainer for me to keep forests around, especially those in conquered cities or on the new world in a terra map since the AI tends to keep them around a lot.

But there’s still no right or wrong move, it all depends on the map and on the situation, and that’s what’s so great about this game!

[padillah]

How is this different than just chopping the forest in the first place?

Well, except that you loose "chop" hammers in the turn over so you're chopping for half the effect. If you chop early and then let the natural hammer production carry over you don't loose anything.

I think I'm failing to see something.

Tom P.

[Krill]

Health boost is .4, and on the normal speed setting forests give 30 shields when chopped...they give 20 shields on the quick setting...

[The-Andy]

eg; a mined grass/hill will provide 2 food and 3 hammers, but a railroaded forest with lumber mill on grass/hill will give you 2 food and 4 hammers.

Railroads give mines +1 hammer as well.

[PeaSoup]

Originally posted by The-Andy


Railroads give mines +1 hammer as well.

Oops, you are completely right
should've checked in the game first.

they both give 1 food and 4 shields.

[Hakai]

Corrected

I corrected the 20 hammers to 30 hammers, the advantage is that by chopping early you're transferring an extra 18 hammers per forest. I wish I knew more about the exact loss formula for hammer carryover, but in this example with 3 forests chopped you get an extra 54 hammers(-carryover loss) out of the deal which you wouldn't get if you waited until after the wonder to chop accelerate your next project. While there is no hammer loss for just acclerating the wonder itself I'm just point out that you can take extra advantage by chopping beyond the wonder's normal production range.

I personally find the bonus production from early chopping to far outweigh the long term loss of health, and since you can chop outside a cities fat cross and even outside your cultural borders you don't even necessarily need to sacrifice health to chop.

[kimmygibler]

Originally posted by padillah
How is this different than just chopping the forest in the first place?

Well, except that you loose "chop" hammers in the turn over so you're chopping for half the effect. If you chop early and then let the natural hammer production carry over you don't loose anything.

I think I'm failing to see something.

Tom P.

Because you get the bonus from IND and having marble applied to your chopped shields. Then they carry over to whatever project you want. At least that is the impression I got from the post.

[Shr3dZ]

Originally posted by padillah
How is this different than just chopping the forest in the first place?

Well, except that you loose "chop" hammers in the turn over so you're chopping for half the effect. If you chop early and then let the natural hammer production carry over you don't loose anything.

I think I'm failing to see something.

Tom P.

I think the point hes making is that you get 100% production bonus building a wonder if youre industrious + stone/marble, and that can carry over onto a regular building in which you normally wouldnt get the 100%+ bonus.

Or perhaps Im failing to see something...

***my figures could be off - 50% for industrious, 100% for stone/marble? cant remember

[padillah]

Ooooh! OK.

I thought he was advocating chopping right at the end of a build cycle. Like when you chop makes a difference.

I can see the point of chopping on an IND + Marble wonder, you get the "bonuses" that fall over to the regular build.

I get it now.

Tom P.

[QuestGAV]

I was under the impression that the game remembers where those hammers comes from and prorates the carryover based on what it would be without the bonuses for the object you're finishing. This may be why you're noticing a carryover loss, you're losing the shields that you gain from the trait/resource bonus.

[Hakai]

Originally posted by QuestGAV
I was under the impression that the game remembers where those hammers comes from and prorates the carryover based on what it would be without the bonuses for the object you're finishing. This may be why you're noticing a carryover loss, you're losing the shields that you gain from the trait/resource bonus.

I don't believe that is the case as there would be no way for me to carryover 148 hammers when the city has a base of just 10 hammers. Since three unmodified chops would equal 90 hammers the carryover isn't just ignoring the bonus.

At the end of the day it really isn't a make or break trick. Just a little something I noticed.