Some strategy advice needed

[DrHook]

I have been playing a couple weeks now, and am still stuck on noble, and not doing very well. I browse the threads etc., but am still having trouble in specific areas. So, I thought maybe some of you could steer me in the right direction. I am not looking for "surefire" strategies, but rather just some help righting my CIV IV ship

1) Military units- it seems that no matter what I do, I am behind the AI in force size. So, every time I end up getting smoked in a war. The problem I am having is finding the balance. If I focus too much on keeping up with the military, the rest of my civ suffers, because I don't end up getting the buildings I need to do the tech and commerce.

2) City specialization- What is the best way to do this? I realize its resource dependent, but I am missing something here- if I focus, for example, on a commerce city, I end up with not enough shields to produce the needed buildings. Same with culture, but to a lesser extent. So when is the time to assign specialists, and what sort of production levels are enough that I can stop focusing on that?

3) Money. Okay, so I know some of the strategies- cottages on rivers, banks/markets, trade routes, shrine income. But I realize that the gold a city generates goes into the science etc. How does the game determine what the "surplus" is that becomes civ-wide income, and how to increase this using commerical institutions?

Some of these might be overly simplistic questions, so I apologize in advance, but I want to get my C4 experience to the next level.

[Cort Haus]

Re: Some strategy advice needed

Originally posted by DrHook

3) Money. Okay, so I know some of the strategies- cottages on rivers, banks/markets, trade routes, shrine income. But I realize that the gold a city generates goes into the science etc. How does the game determine what the "surplus" is that becomes civ-wide income, and how to increase this using commerical institutions?

I'm not sure I understand you here. The surplus is what's left after research, and determined with the 'tech slider' on the top left. It defaults to 100% science, but you can adjust the proportion of this that should go to cash.

Originally posted by DrHook

1) Military units- it seems that no matter what I do, I am behind the AI in force size. So, every time I end up getting smoked in a war. The problem I am having is finding the balance. If I focus too much on keeping up with the military, the rest of my civ suffers, because I don't end up getting the buildings I need to do the tech and commerce.

Try making your second or third city a barracks city and just pump out units until you feel your military is strong enough. Work tiles for production (food and hammers) over commerce, and build Cottages in other cities to specialise those in commerce.

I suggest posting a savegame here so people can look at it to see how best to advise you.

[ducki]

2) City specialization- What is the best way to do this? I realize its resource dependent, but I am missing something here- if I focus, for example, on a commerce city, I end up with not enough shields to produce the needed buildings. Same with culture, but to a lesser extent. So when is the time to assign specialists, and what sort of production levels are enough that I can stop focusing on that?

In conjunction with your first question and Cort's second answer(the barracks city), I wonder if the similarity in the terms "specialize your cities" and "city specialists" has confused you. Specializing a city does not (necessarily) mean using specialists, it means giving a city a specific purpose in life - troop production is an important one, but also as you mentioned, commerce(coastal cities are great for this, see the "most underappreciated building" thread by DeepO), wonders/culture. In these specialized cities, you may end up using city specialists, but a specialized city does not necessarily mean that a city is using specialists.

Just making sure the terms hadn't confused you.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Re: Some strategy advice needed

Hey there.

I'm not the best one out there, but I'll take a stab at helping you out.

Originally posted by DrHook
I have been playing a couple weeks now, and am still stuck on noble, and not doing very well. I browse the threads etc., but am still having trouble in specific areas. So, I thought maybe some of you could steer me in the right direction. I am not looking for "surefire" strategies, but rather just some help righting my CIV IV ship

1) Military units- it seems that no matter what I do, I am behind the AI in force size. So, every time I end up getting smoked in a war. The problem I am having is finding the balance. If I focus too much on keeping up with the military, the rest of my civ suffers, because I don't end up getting the buildings I need to do the tech and commerce.

This is where specialization really comes into play. Typically, on a normal size map, I want 6 ish cities by expansion. I dedicate 2 of those to producing troops.

Which 2? Well, not the city with the most production: That is my wonder city. So, probably the next 2. They should improve the land for shields. More shields the better. Sometimes forrests are better than improvements. Sometimes irrigating that grass and making a priest specialist will help here.

Buildings in these cities should be Barracks, and whatever it needs for happiness/health. Typically libraries, banks, etc are NOT needed as they are simply not making gold. If it happens to be on a river, go ahead. Otherwise, no use in getting a 25% increase to a beaker count of ....1.

If you are next to an 'aggressive' leader, you're going to need allot of troops as chances are they will come knocking soon. Attempt to convert these leaders to your religion (assuming you have one) if you want to keep them passive.

2) City specialization- What is the best way to do this? I realize its resource dependent, but I am missing something here- if I focus, for example, on a commerce city, I end up with not enough shields to produce the needed buildings. Same with culture, but to a lesser extent. So when is the time to assign specialists, and what sort of production levels are enough that I can stop focusing on that?

It's all about balance. Don't chop every forrest down just to get another cottage. You don't need EVERY square with one.

/me looks around for the builderers...

And...utilize slavery to poprush the needed buildings. You need science, cash, and health/happiness buildings in these. Food is just as good as shields in these cases using poprushing. Got allot of those 3-food floodplains on the river? This might just be the perfect solution.

Make sure you prioritize your buildings: If you're running 100% science, a bank isn't going to do much for you, for instance, as none of your gold is going to treasury anyway.

3) Money. Okay, so I know some of the strategies- cottages on rivers, banks/markets, trade routes, shrine income. But I realize that the gold a city generates goes into the science etc. How does the game determine what the "surplus" is that becomes civ-wide income, and how to increase this using commerical institutions?

This is your sliders. Up in the upper left, you'll see a beaker with a % listed next to it. That's how much of your gold is going to science. (later there is also a culture % you can move) Anything under 100% goes into the treasury.

Your banks/markets/et all only effect the portion that is going to the treasury, while libraries, etc only effect the amount going to science.

Some buildings effect the base gold before any of that as well. Harbors and religious shrines come to mind, but I might be missing some.

However, there is also costs for your cities and army. These are outlined in the financial advisor.

[Velociryx]

Looks like I was slow on the draw, and lots of excellent advice has already been given.

To it, I would add simply this:

If you're more of a peaceful builder type, then the way to get your brain around building up a good military is to look at it as "just another building project."

In my mind, I break my military down into three categories, thusly:

* Garrisons

* Pillagers/Mobile Defense

* Meat-Grinders

Garrisons - Pretty self explanatory. Guys you build to stock in your cities. Usually, I put warriors in my first two cities, and then archers in the rest. Rules of thumb I use:

* "On the frontier" : 2-3 units
* On the coast : 2 units
* Safe Interior : 1 unit

Pillagers - Mounted units that can get into enemy territory and rip up terrain improvements (and have a chance of running away if attacked). During peacetime, keep these guys posted on hills near your borders, keeping a lookout for potential trouble.

Rules of thumb I use:
~ 20% of total military in pillage troops

* Meat Grinders - These are the forces you have "at the ready" to bust someone's chops if they stir up trouble. You can stack units together by double clicking on the stack, so it's not hard to organize and arrange them. Remember that you don't WANT "stacks of doom" (catapults and other bombard units can do significant damage), so you'll want to make a few smaller stacks, kept close together, and call this your army.

How much should you have?

That depends on the game, the size of the map you're on, and how much you can afford.

Certainly it needs to be big enough to pose a credible threat. Keep building military units and checking the summary screen, which will show how you stack up, militarily. Best to be AT LEAST 30-50% above average, but of course, more as you can afford it.

Rules of Thumb:
I try to keep my guys organized to be ready at a moment's notice, if called upon. To that end, I keep them near the border of the rival civ I feel will be the most likely to stir up trouble. If he does, then I've already got all my troops close at hand. If I guess wrong, and trouble comes from some other direction, then my fast movers can delay/harass until I can get the bulk of my forces in a position to respond, and of course, happiness is when you can support two or more such conglomerations of troops....

Treat them like a "Combat Wonder," allowing you to hold onto what you've got, or go out and take from someone else.

-=Vel=-

[DrHook]

Thanks for all the tips guys! Cort Haus: yeah I was getting it mixed up a bit with the money to science conversion; a brain cramp I guess!

Ducki: What I was after re: the specialists is how soon do you all start to convert pops to specialists? I got the specializing the cities down, but I always find myself forgetting to make specialists in the cities. A lot of times it seems I don't have to spare food.

UnOrthOdOx: I guess I get confused about the commerce: so if I build a bank etc., doesn't that go into the treasury that then gets converted to beakers depending on the slides? So wouldn't building a bank in a science city be worth it after all? Or am I confused even more now?

Velo: great military tips. I used them recently as the Mongols, and though I eventually got creamed by superior tech Egyptians, I held them off a good, long time whereas before I might not have lasted more than a few turns

[Arrian]

Vel - that's a lot of military units, especially for a peaceful type. Sure, you need to have a credible military, but 30-50% more than your competition? That's warmonger troop levels, IMO.

In my last game (Prince level), I dedicated 1 city (my 4th) to unit production. It didn't build every unit of mine, but it built most. It was a decent city, but there were at least 3 better ones (they had other things to do). That city, in conjunction with a few other unit builds squeezed in to other cities, built enough of a military to take a 3-city bite out of my neighbor (leaving her with 3 cities to be mopped up later).

-Arrian

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by DrHook
I guess I get confused about the commerce: so if I build a bank etc., doesn't that go into the treasury that then gets converted to beakers depending on the slides? So wouldn't building a bank in a science city be worth it after all?

If running 100% science, markets etc. have nothing to work with. If running ZERO% science, libraries have nothing to work with.

[Arrian]

Hmm... given the way things have played out in my games so far, then, the commerce buildings are worth a LOT less than Librarys/Unis/Observatories...

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Awww man...sorry to hear that you got busted.....

Arrian - 30-50% more than the "average" shown in the f9 screen was the number I was referencing....I agree....30-50% bigger than everybody would be excessive...

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

f9 average. Hmm, never really looked at that. I typically rank last or next-to-last in # of troops, though. I think I'm 5th out of 7 in my current game, and I've been a little more uppity than usual

-Arrian

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by DrHook
UnOrthOdOx: I guess I get confused about the commerce: so if I build a bank etc., doesn't that go into the treasury that then gets converted to beakers depending on the slides? So wouldn't building a bank in a science city be worth it after all? Or am I confused even more now?

Not as I understand it.

here, and I could be wrong, still not 100% sure on all this myself:

City A is working tiles that give it 100 Gold per turn. This is the cities 'treasury'.

You have science of 50% (because my math is teh suckage)

50 gold goes to science
50 gold goes to Treasury for your empire.
If you build a Library, + 25% to science, now you get

62 gold to science (maybe 63, not sure how it rounds)
50 gold to Treasury.

Build a bank:

62 science (50 + lib bonus)
62 Treasury (50+ bank bonus)

SOME buildings, though, like a harbor, or the special shrine for holy cities would increase that original 100 gold for the city as a whole, and therefore effect BOTH a bank or Lib bonus.

So, yes, you want a bank in your 'science city' if you are not running 100% science because your science city should be making allot of gold, and you want all that under 100% to get the bonus.

No, making a bank in your science city will not help it put out any more beakers in the least.

[duodecimal]

The commerce/science calculation works like this:

a = base commerce from tiles

a * modifiers from commerce buildings = total city commerce = b

b * research slider rate = commerce for science = c

c * modifiers from science buildings * conversion factor = beakers = d

So if you set your science at 100%, the commerce buildings *are* being used -- their output is just being converted to beakers. So if you build a bank in a city, you should see a bump in science output.

Or am I completely misinterpreting the sequence?

[Saldrin]

There is an option, to turn on the city icons for beakers, coins, and hammers, so you can tell which cities are producing the most of whatever. I usually start to keep things balanced in the start of the game, usually focusing my capital on GPP and a lot of farms to feed them. And let my cities decide what they want to become by watching for the icons.

I wait and see what cities start producing the most hammers and I build forges and what not there. For my commerace cities I stick mainly to cottages and one or two farms. I also keep my specialist geared towards that production. I convert a lot of merchants in my commerace city, and priest for the added food and hammers, engineers in my hammer city, ... Yadda yadda yadda.... City that are not used for comm/prod/sci I use as military cities. And as my GPP city pumps out great people, I put that great person in the appropiate city: merchant in my comm city, engie in my hammer city...

Probably not the best advice, but its been working fairly well for me.

[FancyAFrederick]

Wonderfull stuff on military Velociryx! I need to pay more attention to my army it seems [but then im more of a builder ].

My 2 cents, hopefully helpfull.
Civ4 is in many ways very diffrent from the previous games. My first try on Monarch was a disaster! I didnt manage diplomacy, I had no distinction for my cities but perhaps most important I didnt care (or know) to use my civs advantages.

Someone wise once said "Its all about location, location, location".
This is very true for civ4. The strategy you will use for a game is very dependant on your starting location. Later on, you can expand your civs focus a little more, but in general you have to choose what you want to be your primary source of power. This becomes even more evident as you move up the difficulty ladder.

If you have the financial trait, you should focus on trade. Aim your techs to supply what you need to expand this power. But remember, there is more than one way to do so, and chances are you wont be able to focus on all of them. For example, early game you can move for sea trade (fishing / sailing / masonry) or you can move for land based trade (wheel / pottery ).
Doing both at the same time will make it more or less impossible to attain a reasonable army or grab some culture and religion. This will most likley attract that nasty agressive civ just on your border, and wham! You are screwed.

You have 2 leader traits. I would suggest you focus on both of them with appropriate techs and city building, but choose one as your primary.
Remember, you also need a way to keep invaders away. There is basicly 3 ways of doing this.
Religion, army and generosity. With the last one you need either loads of money, resources or techs.

Once you have figured out your location, applied that to your traits and thus decided on your path trough the tech tree, its time to specialize your cities.
The same thing applies here as in general, you cant be good at everything. The posters before me had some very good ideas about what, when and how to specialize. All I can add is, once again, "location, location, location."
Another thing to consider, specialy if you are a philosophical civ, is what wonders you build in what cities. They all promote diffrent great people so make sure you build, if possible, only one set in each city. For example, the Pantheon is great together with National Epic: they both promote great artists.
You can however offset a mix of wonders by specialist citizens, but it does help to focus in the begining. Why is this important? Well, because you want to be able to controll what great people you recive. If you mix wonders and specialists, you might end up with the wrong one and that can damage your civ seriously.

One last note about money. Be carefull when you expand. The biggest cash leak for me (besides unit upkeep) is allways cities far away from my capital. 2 new cities can destroy your economy if you are not carefull. Allways make sure you can pay for a new colony.

Hope it helps!