Espionage in CivIV - issues and suggestions

[Solver]

Espionage is possibly the most underwhelming part of Civ4, and it is certainly my least favorite part of the game. It also looks like many of you forumers aren't entirely satisfied, so let's keep a nice discussion of the problems of Civ4 espionage.

What's wrong with the espionage? Is it too useless, too expensive, too unexciting?

What are some of the good ways to improve espionage. Add tech stealing? Abstract spy units? Make them able to plant nukes (a-la CtP)? Make them able to frame somebody else for your actions (a-la SMAC)?

[Navyman]

Aside from the lack of capabilities of the spy unit, the unit itself arrives very late in the game. I would like to see the spy unit arrive earlier in the game, maybe around the classical era.

Next, I would like to see the spy unit have it own unique promotion path just like a combat unit. But in order to get promotions, one must actually do something worthwhile, which leads me to my next point.

Have the spy be able to do more interesting stuff like try to break up an alliance, sour relations between two different AI civs, blame it on others, destroy buildings, bribe units, make citizens angry in a city so that the production is harmed, etc...

[Solver]

Basically, you're describing the SMAC model then. Reasonably early available units, causing riots, framing other civs for your actions, and increased chance of success after accomplishing missions.

I'd also much rather see something like SMAC. Maybe there could be two Spy units. A reguar Spy around the Classical era or early Medieval, and a Special Forces unit late in the game, with upgraded capability, such as perhaps assasinations of public figures (reduce happiness), increased chances of success, and so on.

[Navyman]

It would also be super cool if a spy was given the ablility to kill a super specialist that a GP can turn into.

[dearmad]

great idea... assassination!

[Basilisk]

I've yet to actually have a use for espionnage in Civ IV. I would like to see a combination of Civ 2 and SMAC styles... two units as Solver said.

Bring back the Diplomat and the Spy... because, in reality, what else were court ambassadors in the 1500s, but spies?

[WolfEyes]

I vote for the SMAC model.

[Kinjiru]

More spy actions...

Unique spy promotions...

Two (or more) flavours of spies...
- Ambassador - Only able to establish embassies (line of sight to capital), enabled with Writing or Alphabet. An embassy should grant a bonus to relations.

- Spy - Steal plans (get world map), Steal tech, Foment riots (much easier against the French...), Tactical assault (remove one promotion from target unit). And can try to frame others for all actions. Enabled by one of the techs around Gunpowder.

- Covert Operative - Political assassinations (50 - 90% chance of riot in target city, based on promotions), Military assassinations (kill target unit), Covert Tactical assault (remove zero - four promotions from target unit, based on spy's promotions), Pillage square, Plant WMD (loss of city population). Enables with Communism, or whatever the current tech is.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

I would like to see either a SMAC system or one like in 'Birth of the Federation'. In the latter system, espionage was largely abstracted-you invested 'resources' into Intelligence against certain empires, and on certain types of missions (sabotage/espionage)-or else held it back for Internal Security purposes. The investment then influenced the frequency and success of covert operations.

I personally think that an abstract or semi-abstract system would work best-one where players can take a direct role in covert operations, but without having to micromanage on a turn by turn basis-this could be done as follows:

1) You build a spy unit, but only need to know of a city in order to plant the spy there (i.e. no movement). Each successful spy planted increases the chances of performing successful missions against that city, which is directed from an espionage screen.

2) You convert citizens to covert specialists, who produce 'intelligence points' which you can direct against certain nations and certain types of missions-via a seperate intelligence screen (this is closest to the BotF model).

3) You build and plant spies, but then allocate money to various nations and mission types (espionage/sabotage), the combination of # of spies and money allocated determines the frequency and chance of success.

Beyond that, though, I think that making covert ops available earlier AND giving them more missions (maybe not all at once though) is the best way to make the espionage part of the game more fun.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Foxhawk]

100% SMAC.

[donZappo]

I like the idea of being able to steal tech, but this can be a huge exploit if you can just do that with the unit itself. So this definitely gets my vote if it can somehow have a monetary fee attached to it as well. It's dangerous to get free techs for a handful of shields. Just think of this as the spy bribing some scientists for their secrets. Definitely realistic when compared to real life actions.

-donZappo

[Ansaga]

Stealing tech can get abused. In my last game I can make spies every 2 turns and when I put my science to 0% I can crank out 1000 gold/turn. You can keep up with a opponent's tech and rush produce a massive army like that.

Other then that spies need to have more options and honestly just be plainly more useful. Steal plans and sabotage production is good (very expensive though) but sabotage tile really bites. 300 gold for 1 tile which by the point you have spies the enemy should have atleast 4 workers to hook up that tile back in 1 turn.

Bring back the spies that can nuke and the bioterrorist!

[Gunter]

I definetly love a lot this thread but the main question is : is there any remote chance that spies could be tweaked / bettered within patches or it is necessary to rethink the game engine therefore those marvellous ideas above posted are not applicable ?

Gunter

[Martinus]

I think the game should give a spin on the SMAC system, by introducing a system of promotions (in the same line as military unit promotions) that would allow spies to do anything but not everything.

Every time a spy would succeed in a mission it would generate some xp which would then be capable of being used for promotions such as:
- Mobility - more movement
- Stealth - less chance of being caught
- Saboteur - more chance of sabotage, with higher levels also giving a bonus to damage caused
- Demagogue - better chance and better result of inciting unhappiness
- Misdirection - better chance at framing another Civ
- Assassin - (only after few levels of Sabotage and Stealth) - allowing you to murder Great People
- Slayer (also available after few other promotions only) - ability to poison wells
- [ ] (after few levels of Saboteur and a potential promotion giving bonus to tech stealing) - ability to sabotage technology research
- Briber (after few levels of Demagogue) - ability to bribe units
- Culturalist (after few levels of Demagogue) - ability to increase your culture in enemy cities (increasing the chance of culture flip)
- Spy Master (say 5 or 6 promotions of any kind) - allowing you to sacrifice him in your city (the same way you use a great person) to build a spy academy, functioning as "barracks" for spies.

Also, each of these abilities (except for Spy Master) would have several levels, increasing the chance and damage caused (where applicable) of each type of attack.

This way, using spies would be a viable strategy, that could be pursued, however at the same time it won't be overpowered the way spies in Civ2 were, by not giving you all the abilities from get go, and at the same time forcing you to cultivate the spy network first. Also, the way promotions would be balanced, you wouldn't be able to get a "super spy" with all abilities - you would have one person to assassinate, another to spread culture, and yet another to steal technology.

[Martinus]

I also like the idea of deploying spies the same way you would deploy bombers on missions to enemy cities. Upon succesful return they would get xp.