Open Borders gripes!

[MattPilot]

Okay - i tried it out.

And yes, there was a german frigate in your territory, or was it?

That game is totally FUBAR. While it graphically says the frigate is in your territory, i'm not so sure it really is. Confusing, no?

See.. what i did was play 3 turns and saw it move around the same few spots. Then i agreed to open boarders with germany. Thing was, the frigate magically jumped from one spot to another (still within your boarders.

Then i Declared war. Technically, his units should move outside of your territory. The frigate did move, but it again magically jumped to another spot in your territory.

Wierd i thought. I played 2 turns and the frigate started moving towards its cities. I then used World Builder to set peace again. I played a few more turns after that and no more units entered your territory. I followed the frigate around each turn, and it started behaving normally again.

It is really FUBAR, to be honest.


What i'd do is declare war on bismark, then set peace via the world builder. Lemme know if that helps you. Btw, you'll get a -3 "you declared war" modifier but thats no biggie. You can give yourself + points in worldbuilder.

[Cordelayne]

Matt, Thank you for taking a look at it.

I'm not going to mess with the world builder on this one. This looks like it'll be my first easy win--with no wars at all, unless I decide to dump on the French near the end.

This business of lots of German ships regularly in my territory for hundreds of years hasn't really interfered with my game. It's just annoying when the game works improperly.

Soon I'll shift to another game, and no doubt will have some other mysterious problem. But still a very cool game.

[Tulthix]

Just curious about something else. In the screenshot it shows the ai players connected to your trade network (the arrows icon). I thought you had to have open borders to have them connected to your trade network. Am I wrong about this?

[LzPrst]

yeay! more bugs than an anthill!

[MattPilot]

Originally posted by Tulthix
Just curious about something else. In the screenshot it shows the ai players connected to your trade network (the arrows icon). I thought you had to have open borders to have them connected to your trade network. Am I wrong about this?

The Trade icon only means it is connected to YOUR trade network ... talking about your capital.

That can be done either through rivers, roads, or the coast (if you have the tech, its an early one).

[Tulthix]

So the arrows only mean that they are connected to your trade network?

I have been thinking the arrows meant that you had the possibility to have trade with them, meaning they are connected to your trade network plus you have an open border agreement.

Thanks for the infos.

[Arbarbonif]

Any chance it is something goofy like an upgraded caravel keeping it's 'can move through enemy territory' bonus? I'm at work so can't check the upgrade path or test it.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Raion
Why would the units aboard the ship count, unless they were landing, and then you would know that you were at War with that Civ now?

I tried this specifically. You cannot land a Missionary or Settler or Worker off of a Caravel into foreign territory, even though the Caravel itself can go into foreign waters.

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by MattPilot
That game is totally FUBAR.

Well, Cordelayne never saw any bugs in Civ3, so maybe his processor uses different and/or/not logic...?

[QuestGAV]

Do caravels upgrade to both frigates and galleons? Maybe a caravel that has been upgraded retains the ability to explore enemy territory. That would clearly be a bug/exploit but it would explain the behavior.

[Apocalypse Cow]

Originally posted by Cordelayne

As I said in the thread above, earlier in this game the Germans had at least two galleons in my territory loaded with longbowmen and a settler, but I don't see them now. I think they went away after I seized the last oil resource in my territory.

I speculate that this may be some kind of corruption in an early save game file--the game acts as if it thinks the Germans have an open borders agreement from me (even though they keep asking for it and keep getting turned down), but not the other way around. Curious.

Do you know if the Germans have the ability to make spys? If so, is there a possible bug that a spy riding a galleon(or transport or whatever) is able to bust across borders?

[Harovan]

Alright, I can now spare some time for a bit more detailed response.

The Open Borders feature doesn't work right.

I am sorry to break the news to you, that this claim is false, even though you refuse to believe it. If it works in thousands of other games and does not work for you in one game, all you can claim is to have found an exception from the rule. Which does not mean it is irrelevant, bug is bug, however to draw from one bug the conclusion, that the whole feature does not work is about the same as to state, that the whole mankind has AIDS, when in fact only a small percentage has it.

In the diplomacy screen, a green line is labeled "Open Borders," but it really just means peace. There should be a separate color to indicate whether an open borders agreement is in place.

This statement is false as well. Green lines mean open borders. Grey lines mean peace.

I'm over 50.

This does not give you the right to ad hominem abusives. To call others "a minor fanboy", "maroon" (haha!) and "jerk" and to find responses of others "infuriating" are not going to support your argument.

I've been playing computer games for more than 20 years.

This has what to do with this discussion? Besides, I can assure you, that you have no advantage over me in that matter.

I can program in several languages.

If you believe this is impressing anyone here, you are mistaken. Many here know several programming languages. I work as software developer myself and am pretty sure, that I know no less languages than you, even though I would never have the absurd idea to brag with it or to try to use it as proof for an unrelated argument.

I'm not a liar. It's really irritating that some jerks on this board think something is impossible just because they've never seen it.

Nobody called you a liar. To draw wrong conclusions is not lying anyway. You have found a bug, even though it looks rather like either a graphical glitch or a completely messed up game database (where the AI obviously has no idea where that galleon really is). Both have little to do with the Open Borders treaty. I would recommend you to post this incident in the topped bug report thread, including the savegame. "WTF"-threads aren't helpful at all. However, if you follow my recommendation, try not to use personal language.

[Cordelayne]

Sir Ralph, I think you need a nice nap.

I proved that the feature doesn't work as billed--and you say one exceptional game is not enough. Right.

You're also wrong about the lines on the diplomacy screen.

As for the rest, as I said, I think you need a nap.

[vmxa1]

I will be 60 in Jan and have been in computers since 1963, but I make plenty of mistakes.

No one gets a pass because they are this or that age, unless it is under 4. I tend to give very young children a break (most of the time).

So age, skill, training, education are all swell, but no one is perfect. So all must make their point and then prove it.

So say one is mistaken or wrong, is not the same as calling them a liar. Being wrong is only being incorrect, not lying. Lying is to state something you know to be false. None of us can know if the other is lying.

So lets pull in the horns and try to make your case, if you can. It may well be a bug, I do not know.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Cordelayne
I proved that the feature doesn't work as billed--and you say one exceptional game is not enough. Right.

Then how do you explain, that it worked for everyone else here just fine so far, including me in a whole couple of games? Do you call us liars or something?

You have a messed up game, you found a bug, go report it. It might not happen again too soon, so your input will be of value.

You're also wrong about the lines on the diplomacy screen.

How so?