Helicopter (Gunship) Oddities

[Akaoz]

THe Gunship avatar looks like a Cobra, not the AH-64.

[Falconius]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
It would not be right to give gunships the ability to move over mountains and water tiles - no matter if lake or ocean. It would create a situation of them attacking units in adjacent tiles, while being invulnerable, because other units can not enter this terrain and hence, not attack it either.

This is a good point, Sir Ralph. But they could still be attacked by air units and other gunships. Not perfect, but it would work for me.

A bigger problem, I think, would be created by allowing gunships to fly across oceans and explore whole continents. Civ 2 got around this difficulty by having the copters lose strength as they moved around. This, of course, added it's own weirdness.

It would also mean they could attack and be attacked by ships, which might require a complete re-balancing of sea units. Aaarrgghhh!

Ideally, I'd like to avoid the "ocean-crossing copter" problem by making the gunships able to fly over fresh-water, but not salt, or at least not ocean spaces. I'll have to experiment with the ini files.

Btw, I already gave the "amphibious" trait to my copters, so they no longer get the river-crossing attack penalty. A simple fix and it works quite nicely.

[Falconius]

Re: Re: Helicopter (Gunship) Oddities

Originally posted by Gunter
If these bugs are confirmed the situation is worst then I could ever imagined

I didn't mean to imply the game is anything less than great. Because it Rules!

I already fixed #1 in my own games, and I think I can fix #2. #3 might be fixable, but might actually be more realistic to leave alone.

[Dis]

or we could have 2 types of chopper units.

I served on an aircraft carrier, and I can tell you navy choppers are not offensive against land units(but marines ones are- more on that later). You could have navy choppers have the ability to detect subs. Maybe you could have it carry an infantry unit just so they aren't so useless.

Now onto amphibious assault groups. I served on an LPH. It's an obsolete ship/class. But the choppers are still in use. We had a variety of marine choppers we used. We were an old ship without the back of the ship that lowers down to let amphib boats out (I don't know the name of that- never served on those ships). We used choppers to land marines on the shore. We also had a couple cobras.

simply put, I'd like to see choppers on the water. Not necessarily the same chopper with the same stats as the gunship however. But one that can carry marines and spot submarines.

[MattPilot]

I like the idea of having transport choppers that can carry only marines/navy seals. Would give us at least some form of airborne assault.

I still miss my paradrops though

[Dis]

Originally posted by MattPilot
I like the idea of having transport choppers that can carry only marines/navy seals. Would give us at least some form of airborne assault.

I still miss my paradrops though

yeah. I never used them much. But they came in handy in the WW2 pacific scenario in civ3. They are great for ww2 scenarios.

[DrHook]

This topic reminds of something I was thinking about- why is it that gunships can't attack naval units off the coast? (Or can they..I seem to remember being unable to attack a blocakding frigate with my gunships a couple games ago).

So if that one is a non-starter, what about the bombard damage modern jets and stealth bombers do to wooden ships. I was getting like 4% damage on a caravel for crying out loud hitting it with a stealth bomber.

[MattPilot]

I was getting like 4% damage on a caravel for crying out loud hitting it with a stealth bomber

You ever heard of the vietnam war? The US had all the technology in the world, and N. vietnam had nothing but bycicles. I guess technology didn't win that war either.



As for your example - i'd imagine the stealth bomber would have a tough time targeting a wooden ship that is VERY small, unlike your more modern destroyers.

[Drachasor]

Combined arms does not necessarily favor the defender at all. If they put multiple units in the same square then you can deal collateral damage to all of their units. A few attacks like this can cripple a stack. Tanks can have the collateral damage upgrade, which makes them very nasty on stacks of any sort. Additionally, bombers and fighters can soften up the enemy before you attack.

Having the best defender defend simply gives the defender an even chance imho.

-Drachasor

[DrHook]

Originally posted by MattPilot




You ever heard of the vietnam war? The US had all the technology in the world, and N. vietnam had nothing but bycicles. I guess technology didn't win that war either.



As for your example - i'd imagine the stealth bomber would have a tough time targeting a wooden ship that is VERY small, unlike your more modern destroyers.

Okay, point taken, but remember, this was not a frigate that could have been anywhere on the open sea but one blockading my city. Secondly, precision guided munitions? But aside from the stealth bomber issue, I raked it with the modern jet and got about the same. What do YOU think would happen if a sidewinder missle hit an 18th century wooden ship? Or if it was hosed down with the .50 cal gat? I guarantee more than just 4% damage.

[MattPilot]

Originally posted by DrHook


Okay, point taken, but remember, this was not a frigate that could have been anywhere on the open sea but one blockading my city. Secondly, precision guided munitions? But aside from the stealth bomber issue, I raked it with the modern jet and got about the same. What do YOU think would happen if a sidewinder missle hit an 18th century wooden ship? Or if it was hosed down with the .50 cal gat? I guarantee more than just 4% damage.

A sidewinder missile you say? Probably 0% damage.

Sidewinders are air-to-air only. If it can't find a target its designed to go up into the air and explode, as to not cause damage on the ground (innocent civilians, and all).


Sorry, i'm an arse.


I know what you mean. Quite frankly, i don't care. I don't view the game as Woodne ship vs Modern jet. I view it as One game piece vs the other.

Kinda like Alpha centauri. YOu got a LvL 1 laser vs a Lvl 20 laser.

[Falconius]

Originally posted by DrHook
why is it that gunships can't attack naval units off the coast? (Or can they..I seem to remember being unable to attack a blocakding frigate with my gunships a couple games ago).

They can't, because they can't enter sea zones of any kind.

I tried modding mine so they could, but all units are designated in the XML files as either Domain_Land, Domain_Sea, or Domain_Air. The default for gunships is Domain_Land. I tried to make them both land and sea, but I get a game-ending error message when I try to play. Mostly, I want them to be able to fly over small lakes, but using them for coastal recon/defense would also be cool.

Dis, I toyed with your idea of having two chopper types, but you would end up with a chopper that can only be at sea and another that can only be on land, which is kind of silly, and doesn't solve the problem of land-based choppers being unable to fly over a 1-tile-wide lake.

There still may be a way to do this, but not in XML. I think something has to be done in the python files. Unless... Has anyone seen in the XML files where the DOMAINs are defined? I was thinking I could tweak those, but can't find them.

[Arbarbonif]

Originally posted by MattPilot


A sidewinder missile you say? Probably 0% damage.

Sidewinders are air-to-air only. If it can't find a target its designed to go up into the air and explode, as to not cause damage on the ground (innocent civilians, and all).

Heh, aren't sidewinders heatseeking too?

As far as gunships I would like them to be kinda like the old triremes; make it so that they are lost if they end their turn over water, but able to cross it. And make them carryable on carriers.

[Delta-V]

One thing to remember is that helicopter units are not autonomous. They require a ground support unit wherever they go to provide forward rearming/refueling points. They can, realistically, only operate about 100-150 miles from those points. Should they be able to fly over lakes and attack ships on coastal squares? Probably, but they shouldn't be able to end a turn there.

(BTW, the in-game graphic is a twin-engine AH-1W Super Cobra)

[Dis]

argh, a cobra that can't be stationed on a ship.

yeah, yeah I know it's not a combat simulator. But we aren't asking for everything here. Just the ability to operate choppers from ships.

Civ2 really had the best system except giving choppers the ability to take over cities. Really their only flaw.