Does the Industrious Trait stack with the resource discount??

[MasterDave]

In studying the various leader traits in the manual (hey gotta do SOMETHING productive while at work), it seems to me that Industrious is by far the most pwerful leader trait. My game experience so far consists of only one almost- finished game on Noble level as the FDR Americans (that I am going to win by either space race or domination), and watching my wife play another game beside me, so I really am not sure just how superior industrious is to the others, but building all wonders 20 or 25 turns faster than you would otherwise sure SEEMS more powerful than 2 culture per city or a 10% combat bonus to a couple of unit types.

I guess my question for the AU types is whether or not the various 50% production bonuses for wonders that you get for marble, stone, etc. stack with the Industrious trait. If they do, then that means that Industrious races actually get to build most of their wonders for 25% of the cost if they have the needed resource (most of which seem pretty common). That would make the industrious trait far superior to the others.

If the discounts do not stack, and an industrious race builds a wonder no faster than someone who has the special resource, then I would consider it to be about as useful as the other abilities since it would generally only matter for those Wonders that do not have a resource discount.

So has anyone done the research yet? Do the production bonuses for wonders stack with eachother??

[Rosscifer]

Yes.

[Strollen]

Like all Civ bonus the industrious trait is additive not mulitplicative.

So if you have a city with a base 10 production building a wonder that cost 300. It will take 30 turns. With marble or stone, you 10 production is multiply by 100% so production is 10x2=20 or you build the wonder in 15 turns. If you have the industrious trait production is increased to 10 +1*(100%+50%= 25 and the wonder gets built in 3 turns. So clearly the big win is to have marble or stone.

I am playing my first serious game as the french (Napolean industrious/agressive) I did get a number of early wonders but that is primarly cause I got marble and I picked wonders that were benefit by marble. The industrious trait does certainly help especially when combine with cheap forges.

However I am in third place in my game (Prince) right after inventing gunpowders so I am not clear that industrious is an uber trait.

[Azuarc]

I think the real question to ask is, which other leader bonuses are worthwhile?

Creative is good for getting cities off the ground, and has an ok lasting effect.

Aggressive is only good for making war.

Financial is pretty poor in the early game when it's uncommon to have squares with 2 commerce.

Expansive is, I'm betting, pretty good on higher difficulties where the threshold for unhealthiness is lower, but I haven't run into it yet.

Spiritual saves you a turn here or there when switching civics. An extra turn is always good, but I don't switch civics terribly often.

Organized has potential for an empire builder. I haven't really played with that one much yet.

And I can't think of the eighth type.


So, and apologies for hijacking the thread, which traits ARE good?

[Cabbagemeister]

I'm unconvinced about Industrious. It seems like a good trait for going on a wonder-spree in the early and mid-game, sure, and some of those early wonders are nice. But a lot of the mid-game wonders are not so great at all. Then, once you get Universal Suffrage in the end-game, you can BUY wonders, so Financial would be much more useful than Industrious there.

The only way Industrious would be really good is if it enabled increased production speed for Projects (i.e., space ship parts) as well as wonders. This would make the Spaceship win much easier. Not having played with an Industrious civ yet, I don't know if this is the case. Does anyone else?

[sophist]

Originally posted by Strollen
If you have the industrious trait production is increased to 10 +1*(100%+50%= 25 and the wonder gets built in 3 turns.

Huh?

[Byelotsar]

Originally posted by sophist

Originally posted by Strollen

If you have the industrious trait production is increased to 10 +1*(100%+50%= 25 and the wonder gets built in 3 turns.

Huh?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing until I looked at it more closely. Here's what I think is going on, based on Strollen's formula.

Base 10 shield per turn city building 300 shield wonder.
-With marble/stone there's double production (or a one hundred percent bonus of 10spt), so effectively 20 shields/turn.
-With Industrious, there's a fifty percent bonus (5spt), so effectively 15 shields/turn.
-With both marble/stone and Industrious, there's a 100% bonus of 10spt and a 50% bonus of 5spt, for a total production per turn of 25 shields.

The formula should have looked like this:

Final production = 10 + ((1*base production) + (.5*base production)) = 25.

Where the "wonder gets built in 3 turns" thing comes from, I don't know, since even then it would take 12 turns.

[Aeson]

Maybe he meant 3 less turns (15-12=3)?

My favorite part of the IND trait tends to be the half cost Forges in a lot of games. Being able to get them up and running quickly and start running Engineers is very useful. Especially in low production/high food areas.

[Strollen]

Yes sorry I was really unclear . Aeson got it right I meant that industrious trait only saved you three turns. Not enough sleep.

The jury is still out for me on the trait. However, the benefit also applies to national wonders and there are a ton of them. I find building all of them with the industrious trait to be time well spent. , since they basically add 100% to something good: production, military production, science, science, GP points etc.
Assuming you specialize your cities there appears to be a national wonder for you. So the city I built the Great Library in also has the 2 wonders that double GP production, and Oxford University, and as result roughly 1/3 of my science comes from one city (I have 11).

So industrious doesn't suck. Bbut I think a trait lets you grap the marble or stone early maybe even more value. Creative generates culture imediately, which lets you grap land quickly. Spiritual gives you 1/2 price temples and a good chance of grabing the critical resource.

Expanding just for the sake of expanding maybe be dead, but it seems to me there still is a land grab in the early game but the race is to get the critical resources.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Strollen
Spiritual gives you 1/2 price temples and a good chance of grabing the critical resource.

Could you please clarify how the spiritual trait helps grab resources? (I have not had the priviledge of playing yet...)

[V3nom]

my guess is he means that you can get more temples, which helps build more temples. Which means culture expands your borders faster....

[Strollen]

After a night of more less full sleep, let me explain more.

In Civ 3, there were three ways to grab resouces and land early, spam settlers, or spam culture, or through force.

Now I haven't played enough Civ 4 to see how early wars work so I wont discuss it.

In Civ 3 if you saw a location that could utilize three valuable resources, it often made sense to grab the resources placing two cities next to the resources, rather than the using one city optimally placed. Otherwise you risked losing the resource to the enemy who would settle next to it.

In Civ 4 if you adopt that strategy you risk going broke paying for all of the expensive early cities. (I.e. settle spam is no longer a viable strategy) You are much better off using a single city and attempting to gain the resources by putting them in your cultural borders. That way even if your enemy settles next to a resource (I.e. 3 away from your city.), your cultural border may still contain the resource. In Civ 4, cities no longer are guarrantee access to any squares other than the initial city square.

Creative leaders cities get +2 culture (Like having the Temple of Artimeties as a starting wonder). Spiritual leaders have early access to religion, stonehedge, and cheap temples all of which allow new cities to spread culture quickly. In my next game, I'll chose a leader with one of those characteristic to see how cultural spamming works.

[Fried-Psitalon]

Originally posted by Azuarc
I think the real question to ask is, which other leader bonuses are worthwhile?

Creative is good for getting cities off the ground, and has an ok lasting effect.

Aggressive is only good for making war.

Financial is pretty poor in the early game when it's uncommon to have squares with 2 commerce.

Expansive is, I'm betting, pretty good on higher difficulties where the threshold for unhealthiness is lower, but I haven't run into it yet.

Spiritual saves you a turn here or there when switching civics. An extra turn is always good, but I don't switch civics terribly often.

Organized has potential for an empire builder. I haven't really played with that one much yet.

And I can't think of the eighth type.


So, and apologies for hijacking the thread, which traits ARE good?

Creative - as you say, good for getting cities off the ground - also good for increase your invasion response time.

Aggressive - the first time you face an army of units that are coming out of the city with a barracks with an anti-your-unit promotion, you'll respect this a lot more. It's also good for dissuading war.

Financial - tiles that have 2 commerce? Gold, silver, gems, wineries, cottages on rivers, cottages matured to hamlets (level 2), ANY SEA TILE... Financial, like several of the better traits, requires a strategy or concentration devoted to it. Realistically, this can be an immensely powerful trait if you work to leverage it. (This is the case with several traits.)

Expansive - cheap granary. ZOOM goes the growth. The health bonus is strong on a lot of levels for topping out your cities above other folks... by about 2 points per city.

Spiritual - civic micromanagers. The cheaper temples work out for a few strategies, but it's true that the majority of this strategy is in the civic micromanagement - nice for flipping in and out of important short-term civic usage.

Organized - great for using powerful early expensive civics (Org.Rel.), Vassalage, and maybe Police State if you snag the pyramids.

Philosophical - (forgot this one) great for players who want to leverage Great People for whatever their bonus of choice may be.

[joncnunn]

Religious also allows half priced Temples, which is great for spreading culture.

And yes, Industrious on the Prince level seems over powered.
(But excelent if you want to see the wonder videos quickly)

[Matthew]

When I first saw industrious, I thought it looked too powerful. But after thinking about the other traits, they can all be very powerful if played right. Cultural seems wimpy at firat sight, but it is like a free obelisk, which can do wonders for those young cities.

Spiritual can be imensely powerful if you really like to switch civics, which is a lot more tempting when it's free.

I'm thinking that a good use of industrious would be to get the pyramids early. This could be great combined with spiritual.

Philosophical may well be better than industrious for wonder races. Those great engineers can do wonders for wonder construction.